AI along with your cycle may be a must

[pineapple]

This only applies to women.

Women's bodies convert most of the testosterone produced into estrogen. So any access taken such as a steroid, will be converted into estrogen. That is why most women will experience bloating and fat gain when taking a steroid.

The androgens are converted into estrogen. Essentially what women do when they take a steroid, is pump their bodies full of estrogen. So, to get what you want from a cycle is to use an AI along with the steroid. What would be the point of taking an anabolic if most of it will be converted into estrogen anyway? Making you gain fat and a ton of water?

In regards to taking Nolvadex or Arimidex or Femara to combat conversion of androgens into estrogen, it would be, in my opinion, best to take Arimidex or Femara in low doses. Femara is a very powerful anti estrogen and the half life is about 40hours, so those daily doses will build up. You can take .25mg of Femara per day along with whatever steroid compound to reduce and eliminate the conversion of androgens in your blood into estrogen, do not use Nolvadex. (Half life of Femara is 2days, that means half the hormone is active in the body after two days). Play with the dosages, may try to start with 1.25 (skipping every two days). If you read in the articles forum a thread I started called "NOLVADEX", Nolvadex competes with the estrogen receptor, it does not stop the conversion of androgens into estrogen. So when you stop taking NOLVADEX, you still have a flood of estrogen in your system that will flood your reseptors when Nolvadex is discontinued. The conversion of androgens (steroids) into estrogen is what causes the fat gain and water gain in women. Arimidex in this case stops that conversion of androgens into estrogen, therefor no bloating or fat gain will occur. The dose of the steroid taken may also be reduced if taken with an AI; reduce the dose only as needed (to avoid any out-coming side effects).

How an AI works.
An AI binds to the aromatase enzyme and blocks it from converting androgens to estrogen.
In women, estrogens are mainly derived from the action of the aromatase enzyme, which converts adrenal androgens (primarily androstenedione and testosterone) to estrone and estradiol. Letrozole is a nonsteroidal competitive inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme system; it inhibits the conversion of androgens to estrogens. Letrozole is as effective in reducing uterine weight, elevating serum LH. Letrozole does not lead to an increase in serum FSH. Letrozole selectively inhibits gonadal steroidogenesis but has no significant effect on adrenal mineralocorticoid or glucocorticoid synthesis. Letrozole inhibits the aromatase enzyme by competitively binding to the heme of the cytochrome P450 subunit of the enzyme, resulting in a reduction of estrogen biosynthesis in all tissues. Treatment of women with letrozole significantly lowers serum estrone, estradiol and estrone sulfate and has not been shown to significantly affect adrenal corticosteroid synthesis, aldosterone synthesis, or synthesis of thyroid hormones.

[phytgrl]

Wow differnt people have diff theories. someone else said to take ONLY nolvadex on another forum and to taper off of it to avoid the rebound apparantly,,I guess that is why I hear of so many women staying on it for so long! They were saying to only use AI when you are menopausal... it is very confusing! IN your personal opinion, if someone is not taking aas can you use either of them and do you think it would work ? theoretically some women have higher test naturally in their bodies? I hope this is not a stupid question..

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by phytgrl

Wow differnt people have diff theories. someone else said to take ONLY nolvadex on another forum and to taper off of it to avoid the rebound apparantly,,I guess that is why I hear of so many women staying on it for so long! They were saying to only use AI when you are menopausal... it is very confusing! IN your personal opinion, if someone is not taking aas can you use either of them and do you think it would work ? theoretically some women have higher test naturally in their bodies? I hope this is not a stupid question..

I'm not sure if you're getting the point exactly I'm trying to make. I'm talking about taking AI while on CYCLE, not after cycle.

But, you could also use a very small dose of AI instead of Nolvadex for post cycle to avoid the overabundance of estrogen to testosterone ratio. But if you're taking AI during the cycle in the first place, you may not need to worry about it when you come off, since your estrogen levels will be on the lower side in the first place.

Menopausal women's bodies have too much estrogen compared to their testosterone level, so it would make sense to take AI to lower the estrogen level. I could be wrong about that, the whole menopause hormone imbalance is still being debated among the so called experts.

If you already have high levels of test, you dont even need to take an AI. But if you do, it will lower your estrogen level and raise your testosterone level. The ratios will be off. But keep in mind that this does have it's own side effects and should not be used for a very long time.

[Musculo Fuerte]

Hmm, this thread definitely grabbed my attention as I am going to be starting a cycle of Winnie sometime next year. Can any women with experience using an anti-estrogen give any input on this?

[Nasdaq]

very interesting theory...but by blocking the aromatase and it not exerting its effects..... the androgens would be stronger and buildup more ...so your(a womans) dosages of more androgenic hormones could and would need to be lowered to avoid masculinization?

Could the androgen getting turned estro by the aromatese be the culprit of the bloat from winny woman get?

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by Nasdaq

very interesting theory...but by blocking the aromatase and it not exerting its effects..... the androgens would be stronger and buildup more ...so your(a womans) dosages of more androgenic hormones could and would need to be lowered to avoid masculinization?

Could the androgen getting turned estro by the aromatese be the culprit of the bloat from winny woman get?

That would be correct, you would have more testosterone and androgens in your body, but that also depends on the dose of the AI you're taking.

Letrozole’s terminal elimination half-life is about 2 days and steady-state plasma concentration after daily 2.5mg dosing is reached in 2-6 weeks. Plasma concentrations at steady-state are 1.5 to 2 times higher than predicted from the concentrations measured after a single dose, indicating a slight nonlinearity in the pharmacokinetics of letrozole upon daily administration of 2.5mg. These steady-state levels are maintained over extended periods, however, and continuous accumulation of letrozole does not occur.

So if you're experiencing androgenic side effects, it would be best to lower the steroid dosage instead of the AI dosage.

You are correct on your last sentence also.

[Nasdaq]

Would it be safe to say that women have more aromatese than men in general circulating in their system?

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by Nasdaq

Would it be safe to say that women have more aromatese than men in general circulating in their system?

Sure. Women produce just as much test as men, it's just that most of it is converted into estrogen.

[Musculo Fuerte]

I'm not trying to be a smartass by any means, but do you have a credible source to back up this statement? I mean, women don't have testes.

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by Musculo Fuerte

I'm not trying to be a smartass by any means, but do you have a credible source to back up this statement? I mean, women don't have testes.

In women, the testosterone production is split about 50:50 between the ovaries and the adrenal glands. In men, the testes produce testosterone.

[DocJ]

Wouldn't taking femera or arimidex rather than aromasin completely tank a female's HDL?

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by DocJ

Wouldn't taking femera or arimidex rather than aromasin completely tank a female's HDL?

It wouldnt tank it because there is still enough estrogen in the body. It will bring it down as long as you're taking it. That's why you have to cycle this just as you would with steroids. The HDL will return to normal after the usage is stopped.

[lillee3377]

An AI on cycle would work out great, but I don't think it necessary has to be a pharm grade one. I think ATD, 6-Bromo, or 6-OXO will work just as well and have less sides. I say this cause my girlfriend did a 6-Bromo supplement (Anabolic Extreme's Hyperdrol) only cycle and lost alot of fat while putting on muscle last year. She went from squatting 90 pounds for ten reps to 250 pounds for twenty reps within two months. Here in a couple weeks she will be running a cycle and will add the ATD to it. I'll let you all know how it goes.

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by lillee3377

An AI on cycle would work out great, but I don't think it necessary has to be a pharm grade one. I think ATD, 6-Bromo, or 6-OXO will work just as well and have less sides. I say this cause my girlfriend did a 6-Bromo supplement (Anabolic Extreme's Hyperdrol) only cycle and lost alot of fat while putting on muscle last year. She went from squatting 90 pounds for ten reps to 250 pounds for twenty reps within two months. Here in a couple weeks she will be running a cycle and will add the ATD to it. I'll let you all know how it goes.

When a female is taking 10mg of Anavar per day, and most of that is converted into estrogen, I highly doubt that 6-oxo can stop that conversion like a pharmaceutical pill can.

Your girlfriend is also not most women. We're talking about staying in VERY GOOD SHAPE here while cycling and getting better at it.

[pineapple]

Sticky!

[Miss Perfection]

Yes, excellent thread worth making a sticky!

Just one question which hasn't been covered in this topic yet: what about the effect AI on the state of mind? I heard someone say being on Arimidex got them severly depressed and irritable...

[Miss Perfection]

And another question jumps to mind: how about aging from AI? The cosmetics industry is always hounding us girls how important collagen is in relation to skin structure?
Studies have shown estrogen increases skin thickness, capillary blood flow, collagen content, certain proteins and water content etc.

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by Miss Perfection

And another question jumps to mind: how about aging from AI? The cosmetics industry is always hounding us girls how important collagen is in relation to skin structure?
Studies have shown estrogen increases skin thickness, capillary blood flow, collagen content, certain proteins and water content etc.

There is no aging from lack of estrogen (when using an AI), plus, you're not taking this for your entire LIFE. Just for a few weeks or months.

Originally Posted by Miss Perfection

Yes, excellent thread worth making a sticky!

Just one question which hasn't been covered in this topic yet: what about the effect AI on the state of mind? I heard someone say being on Arimidex got them severly depressed and irritable...

...and PMS doesnt do that for ya monthly??!

[SleepingAssPirate]

I hear that pineapple stores his expertise on wimmenz inside of his massive back

[Miss Perfection]

Originally Posted by pineapple

...and PMS doesnt do that for ya monthly??!

Yes, sometimes. And that's BAD enough as it is. That's why I asked.
Imaging having this for several weeks/months during a cycle!

I don't think I could keep it up long enough. Maybe Albuterol is a more viable option? Not speaking from experience here, just trying to gather info before (if - eventually) taking the plunge...

[DADAWG]

Originally Posted by pineapple

When a female is taking 10mg of Anavar per day, and most of that is converted into estrogen, I highly doubt that 6-oxo can stop that conversion like a pharmaceutical pill can.

Your girlfriend is also not most women. We're talking about staying in VERY GOOD SHAPE here while cycling and getting better at it.

since when did anavar or winnie start aromatiseing into estrogen

[SleepingAssPirate]

O Shit

Clash Of Titans Inc.

[supergirl]

Originally Posted by DADAWG

since when did anavar or winnie start aromatiseing into estrogen

i love how you read my mind dawgy baby!!!


also, about this comment...

Originally Posted by pineapple

It wouldnt tank it because there is still enough estrogen in the body. It will bring it down as long as you're taking it. That's why you have to cycle this just as you would with steroids. The HDL will return to normal after the usage is stopped.

return to normal??? we are talking about women here right? whose hormones take such precision and care to balance that when suppressed, even for a short time, come back with a vengence!!
I can not even begin to tell you the struggles women face when dealing with hormone manipulation!!! just talk to any woman who's been on birth control!!

I am not being argumentative here at all.. in fact i love that you are contributing here in the women's section! and i thank you for your knowledge!!
I do feel however that when introducing an estrogen blocker or suppressor into a woman's body, GREAT care and precaution must be excercised because there are so many variables to consider and once hormones are unbalanced, regulating them again is a feat; one that i myself am oh too familiar with!

regards,
super

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by DADAWG

since when did anavar or winnie start aromatiseing into estrogen

Since women were born? Androgens in the female body are converted into estrogens.

These numbers will vary from source to source but women produce about .3mg of androgen a day and convert 50% of it to estrogen, while men produce 7mg but convert only a quarter of 1% to estrogen.

So as you can see, if the female body is pumped of more androgens/testosterone, alot of it would be converted into estrogen. The fat gain and water gain in a way backs this up. It would be nice to get bloodwork done while on cycle to look at the numbers.

Keep in mind that this doesn't apply to ALL women.

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by supergirl

i love how you read my mind dawgy baby!!!


also, about this comment...


return to normal??? we are talking about women here right? whose hormones take such precision and care to balance that when suppressed,And how is this different compared to men? We go through the same thing. even for a short time, come back with a vengence!!
I can not even begin to tell you the struggles women face when dealing with hormone manipulation!!! just talk to any woman who's been on birth control!! The comparison of birth control to taking an AI is completely different.

I am not being argumentative here at all.. in fact i love that you are contributing here in the women's section! and i thank you for your knowledge!!
I do feel however that when introducing an estrogen blocker or suppressor into a woman's body, GREAT care and precaution must be excercised because there are so many variables to consider and once hormones are unbalanced, regulating them again is a feat; one that i myself am oh too familiar with! That's why the more input we have from women, the more we know instead of just guessing about what would happen. In my opinion, it would be more dangerous to put a woman on a steroid cycle than have her take an AI to lower her estrogen levels.

regards,
super

My responses are in red. I'm glad that you're not arguing like others tend to but instead we're having a discussion with positive input.