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(Forum for members to discuss training information)

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  • 1 Post By donjob
  1. #1
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    Default Critique my forum please
    Hello, i am a 20 year old who started a bulk 2 weeks ago. im 191lb at 12% bf. I always toyed around with my routine but thought i'd get my current one checked out by some more experienced lifters. ps this is my second year of lifting and my diet is on point.

    mon. - back and biceps: lat pulldown, close grip seated row, wide grip seated row, hyperextensions
    tues. - chest and triceps: incline bench press, flat bench press, machine flyes, decline bench press
    wed. - rest
    thur. - shoulders: dumbbell shoudler press, face-pulls, side raises, front raises, shrugs
    fri. - abs and deadlifts (inc. deadlift variants): traditional deadlifts, defecit deadlifts, romanian deadlifts
    sat. - rest
    sun. - legs (inc. calves): squats, hamstring curls, leg press, leg extension, calf raises

    Bicep, tricep and abs exercises are simple curls+variants, pushdowns+variants and leg raises/crunches + variants

    i target to achieve muscle hypertrophy with my workouts and lift weight that allows me to achieve 6-10 reps.

    currently eating 3500 calories a day

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    first thing that sticks out to me is possible overtraining. it's a hard concept to pound into your head, and we all love going to the gym all the time and hittin it hard, but take 3 or 4 weeks and try this and see what happens. worst that can happen is you plateua and you know not to do it anymore. for one thing lose the abs and deadlift day. deadlift is one of the most taxing exercises on your CNS and you've already hit back that week? make that a rest day. start doing your deadlifts on back day, one week do just regular deads, next week just rack pulls, next week deficit deadlifts and roate like that. no need for 3-5 sets of each on the same day. you are hurting your gains. same goes for chest days, don't do incline flat and decline. rotate them. start focusing on slow controlled negatives and maybe some rest pause sets. keep track of your lifts and always try and beat them, if you've plateuaed then tackle it with a new approach. you won't gain if you're lifting the same weight with the same reps week after week. screw the hyper extensions, your lower back is getting blasted enough with deadlifts. do your wide grip seated rows one week then the next do bent over barbell rows. back and forth. same with lat pulldowns and pullups. weighted pullups, try and up the weight or reps each week. after a few weeks just do body weight pullups and burn out on those bitches. confuse your body. now that you don't have an ab and deadlift day, throw abs in with one of your days that takes the least amount of time compared to the others. your core is getting hit with deads and squats. 5 minutes is all it should take at the end of a workout to do some planks and whatever else is your favorite ab exercises. don't neglect your obliques! really no need to do squats and leg press on the same day. swith those out as well. after one or the other which ever is first you should have gone so hard you can't do the second exercise. if you can you didn't go hard enough. switch out squats once in a while with hip squats or lunges. switch out leg press sometimes for front squats. just pick one big one and kill yourself. then crawl out of the gym. and last but definetly not least is your diet. i don't know what it looks like but if you're bulking 3500 cals ain't enough for someone your size. there are calorie calculators out there, then you can start adding 100 or 200 cals a day until you start gaining. but for someone who weighs 191 i would guess somewhere around 4000 cals at a minimum. good luck bro

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    thanks for the reply! i like the idea's you have brought up, i am more than willing to add the deadlifts to my back day and hit abs on leg day or something. as for the bent over row switch out, isn't that just more lat's (assuming it's carried out with elbows tucked in to the body)?
    I think i'm going to try and integrate your idea's into my split, will get back to you on how it goes!

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    oh yeah p.s. i'll play with the calories. as for my nutrition, it is on point. good carbs, good protein and plenty of good fats. I use Myfitnesspal to track my calories extremely accurately as well so that's of no concern

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    5th week of my bulk, weight is going up gradually. all lifts are getting heavier by 5ish Kg. bent over row went up to 70kg from 50, getting 2 more reps from pull-ups, incline went up from 32.5's to 35s etc etc. adapted my routine to have 2 rest days a week

    1. legs 2. Rest 3.Back 4. Chest 5. Rest 6. shoulders 7. Rest
    will post again soon to give a solid weight gain update

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    glad to see you are gaining again man! sorry i didn't see your replies earlier to my post. as far as the bent over rows go, i've always heard it's more of a back width exercise but i feel it is a total back exercise. especially the upper middle of my back, i feel it contracting there, and i believe it is more geared toward your lower lats. that is why i do pullups every back workout because i feel it is the only exercise beside lat pulldowns (which are basically the same thing) that fully hit your lats. if you're doing bent over bb rows correctly your upper body should be almost parallel with the ground, which is great for your lower back. focus on using your back and lats to pull the weight and not your biceps and forearms. pull the bar to your sternum. now the reason i say switch out bent over rows with seated cable rows is because they are basically the same thing..... but hitting the same muscles at a different angle. if you do both heavy every back workout i feel you are overtraining. now not overtraining in the sense that your CNS is worn down and you're getting weaker, but that one of those is sufficient in breaking down the muscle fibers properly. now if you hit back once a week, that means each one of these exercises is getting hit once every two weeks. the same muscles are getting hit from different angles each week, to help with size. but those exercises are getting a good break which prepares you for the next time and helps with strength. just my opinion, i'm not a scientist.

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    No problem buddy! i totally agree with you on the form for the bent over rows, hate it when people perform it almost upright. Now, i have a pretty solid routine for back atm IMO, critique as you please...

    1. rack pulls/deadlifts 2. wide-grip pulldowns (2 sets) close grip (2 sets) 3. bent over rows 4. machine rows (the ones that hit deep in the traps)

    the reson for the two pulldown variants is purely because it feels great! now i know you're going to comment on the machine rows + bent over rows, however let me explain...the bent over rows hit my lats hard, not my middle back. the machine rows on the other hand, they really hit my middle back/traps, love it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoghegan View Post
    No problem buddy! i totally agree with you on the form for the bent over rows, hate it when people perform it almost upright. Now, i have a pretty solid routine for back atm IMO, critique as you please...

    1. rack pulls/deadlifts 2. wide-grip pulldowns (2 sets) close grip (2 sets) 3. bent over rows 4. machine rows (the ones that hit deep in the traps)

    the reson for the two pulldown variants is purely because it feels great! now i know you're going to comment on the machine rows + bent over rows, however let me explain...the bent over rows hit my lats hard, not my middle back. the machine rows on the other hand, they really hit my middle back/traps, love it!
    hey everyone is different and if it works it works. now when you say machine rows are you talking about the chest supported hammer strength rows or the seated rows with the cable pulley and spade grip handles? i like to switch out bent over rows for cable rows once in a while but may need to check out the chest supported rows to switch it up. oh and i don't know if you do behind the back pullups or pulldowns at all, but i just did them for the first time in a year and wow. really hits the chenter of your back between the shoulder blades like nothing else. i just make sure to use bodyweight for now and not go too far, don't want to hur the shoulders. almost like a half rep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjob View Post
    hey everyone is different and if it works it works. now when you say machine rows are you talking about the chest supported hammer strength rows or the seated rows with the cable pulley and spade grip handles? i like to switch out bent over rows for cable rows once in a while but may need to check out the chest supported rows to switch it up. oh and i don't know if you do behind the back pullups or pulldowns at all, but i just did them for the first time in a year and wow. really hits the chenter of your back between the shoulder blades like nothing else. i just make sure to use bodyweight for now and not go too far, don't want to hur the shoulders. almost like a half rep.
    yeah man, the one with the chest support. i am a strong guy so i can put alot of weight on it and really squeeze my shoulder blades together, really works. as for the behind the head pulldowns, i used to do them all the time but for some reason never went back after seeing progress with the conventional in-front-of head pulldowns. i am going to try these next week and report back!

    i'd love to hear what you think of my shoulder and abs workout atm.

    1.heavy dumbbell shoulder press 2.face-pulls on pulley 3.Side raises (45d angle and from hips) 4.front raises 5. shrugs
    ABS: superset lower and upper ab exercise, usually leg raises to weighted crunches, 5 sets to failure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoghegan View Post
    yeah man, the one with the chest support. i am a strong guy so i can put alot of weight on it and really squeeze my shoulder blades together, really works. as for the behind the head pulldowns, i used to do them all the time but for some reason never went back after seeing progress with the conventional in-front-of head pulldowns. i am going to try these next week and report back!

    i'd love to hear what you think of my shoulder and abs workout atm.

    1.heavy dumbbell shoulder press 2.face-pulls on pulley 3.Side raises (45d angle and from hips) 4.front raises 5. shrugs
    ABS: superset lower and upper ab exercise, usually leg raises to weighted crunches, 5 sets to failure
    well i'll say again if it works for you then keep at it, i personally think that's too much for shoulders though. that's where everybody's different comes into play though. my shoulders grow just fine with very minimal work, just getting hit on chest and back days indirectly, so i'll just do some overhead presses on chest day to fatigue them, maybe some rotator cuff work, real light. i do shoulders on my chest/tris day since a)they're already getting hit and i like as much rest as possible inbetween working those same muscles again and b) the shoulder is such a small muscle group i don't see the sense in giving it a seperate day, spending 30-45 minutes on them when that's what it takes me to do a larger group like chest, back or legs.

    with that said, i also don't know the volume you are training with, you didn't list sets or reps or the percentage of your 1rm you are using. now if you're spending 15-20 minutes on those bad boys and 30 minutes blasting your abs i see no problem with a seperate shoulder day, especially if you've got the size and now you're working more on shaping movements. here's how i would tweak your shoulder workouts though, maybe give it a try.

    dumbbell shoulder press - go heavy (which you said you're doing) since it's a compound movement. too many people have gotten away from the overhead press whether it be barbell or dumbbell. did you know the overhead press was once a lift in i believe either the olympics or powerlifting meets, i forget which one. it was discontinued though since it was too hard to judge. great movement. one shoulder day i would do dumbbells, next i would use barbell. same movement basically but that way you're getting to switch it up, and i believe that will keep you from plateauing longer. seated or standing doesn't matter since we're focusing on the shoulder but i prefer standing barbell overhead presses, may be weaker than sitting at first but over time is great for the whole body. i also prefer to do a hang clean and then press it up rather than lift it off a rack.

    face pulls - i've never done these but plan on it next back day. i may be wrong but i thought this was a back movement? more for upper back, i mean sure the shoulders will be hit but i wouldn't call this a shoulder movement.

    side raises - love these for an assistance exercises. i like to use the 5x5 method on heavy compound lifts and 2x8 or 3x8 on lifts like these.

    front raises - i personally don't do these anymore because they kill my rotator cuff, even if i go light. if you enjoy them though, i would switch these out with lateral side raises every other workout. basically the same exercise but hitting the same heads from a different angle. so yeah i would switch these up.

    shrugs - some people do them on shoulder days, some on back. i do them on back. i don't feel they are part of the shoulder as much as the back and they get hit doing other back exercises such as dead lifts or bent over rows. it may not feel like it but they do, so i do them on back days. believe it or not a lot of big deadlifters don't do shurgs at all and are yolked as fuck.

    great exercise you're not doing...... upright rows. awesome exercise to go heavy on, i don't bring the bar above my nipples. working your shoulders almost the same as side lateral raises but you can go much heavier. i would do shrugs on back day and replace them with these on your shoulder day. 5x5 on your overhead presses, 5x5 on upright rows. 3x8 light to moderate weight on the rest. switch out exercises that are similar and this shouldn't take you more than 20 minutes tops. also a good exercise to think about maybe warming up with every week are rotator cuff exercises on the pulley cables (i don't know the exact name of this exercise). no need to go heavy on them, i like to use them as a warm up, stretch em out and get the blood flowing in there before i start pressing heavy ass shit over my head. really helps with your bench too.

    abs - i wouldn't use any type of weight on any ab exercise. really no need. throw in some flutter kicks with your hands at your sides, not under your butt if you can do them that way. i also like to get in the six inch posistion, laying on your back legs extended feet 6 inches off the ground, and move my legs very slowly in big circles. planks are also great. just make sure you are doing them properly and you shouldn't be able to last more than 30-40 seconds or so, if you can you have exceptional core strength or you are doing it wrong. once you've mastered this do it with your feet elevated, or maybe right arm extended in front of you left leg off the ground, vica versa.
    Last edited by donjob; 07-06-2012 at 03:05 PM.

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    Being young, i can take a lot of volume, i like to keep it in 3-4 sets per exercise and reps as low as possible 3-6/8. your opinion on the front and side raises doesn't seem valid to me as the shoulder is comprised of three heads and side and front raises definitely hit two different heads. I never actually used to do front raises but since dislocating my collar bone i put them in to strengthen the joint.

    Facepulls hit my rear delts more than any other rear delt exercise; they may hit a bit of back but if i dont do them on my back day i dont see the harm in it.

    Shrugs - love this exercise, always seems to increase my lifts and grip whilst adding mass to my upper traps, can't say that i have room for them on back day either. personally i believe shoulders would be anything from nipple line and up (minus pec minor and lats).

    upright rows - hate this exercise, it has never felt comfortable. i also believe marc lobliner (follow him on youtube) agree's with me on this one, overrated and uncomfortable. i think i'll stick to the side raises!

    abs - i want to thicken them and make them pop as it were. weighted crunches seem to be a good thickness-builder from what i've read and been told. also lower ab/ hip flexor development has never been strong in my body which is why i kick off with these exercises such as leg raises.

    opinion on volume please! i'm young and natural:
    My workouts normally take 60 minutes, i like 16- 20 sets for major muscle group and then 8 for minor ones. i.e. 16-20 for chest then 8 for triceps. most of my sets are in the 6-8 rep range, i dont like high repetition training, it has never seemed to work for me.
    i know a lot of you experienced guys hate the high volume training but is that just because it doesnt/hasnt worked for you in the past as opposed to it being non optimal ?

    thanks for the reply

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoghegan View Post
    Being young, i can take a lot of volume, i like to keep it in 3-4 sets per exercise and reps as low as possible 3-6/8. your opinion on the front and side raises doesn't seem valid to me as the shoulder is comprised of three heads and side and front raises definitely hit two different heads. I never actually used to do front raises but since dislocating my collar bone i put them in to strengthen the joint.

    Facepulls hit my rear delts more than any other rear delt exercise; they may hit a bit of back but if i dont do them on my back day i dont see the harm in it.

    Shrugs - love this exercise, always seems to increase my lifts and grip whilst adding mass to my upper traps, can't say that i have room for them on back day either. personally i believe shoulders would be anything from nipple line and up (minus pec minor and lats).

    upright rows - hate this exercise, it has never felt comfortable. i also believe marc lobliner (follow him on youtube) agree's with me on this one, overrated and uncomfortable. i think i'll stick to the side raises!

    abs - i want to thicken them and make them pop as it were. weighted crunches seem to be a good thickness-builder from what i've read and been told. also lower ab/ hip flexor development has never been strong in my body which is why i kick off with these exercises such as leg raises.

    opinion on volume please! i'm young and natural:
    My workouts normally take 60 minutes, i like 16- 20 sets for major muscle group and then 8 for minor ones. i.e. 16-20 for chest then 8 for triceps. most of my sets are in the 6-8 rep range, i dont like high repetition training, it has never seemed to work for me.
    i know a lot of you experienced guys hate the high volume training but is that just because it doesnt/hasnt worked for you in the past as opposed to it being non optimal ?

    thanks for the reply
    yes it true front raises hit the anterior head of the delt, side hits the medial head. i was just saying switch them up since they are similar and less is more. your medial head may not be directly targeted during a front raise but it is definetly getting hit. now even though the traps are above nipple line, that doesn't make them shoulders. they tie in with your back. if you still want to hit them on shoulder days that's fine, i just wanted to throw some suggestions out there for you. and i'm not gonna lie, i'm sort of telling you how i do things. what i've come to find that has worked for me. i've gotta remember everyone is different. you may be feeling the face pulls in your shoulders more so because you are not concentrating on your back contractions when you do it, or using improper form. sort of the same way you can be hitting your shoulders more than your chest on bench from not building a good base with your back and rolling your shoulders forward. or it could be your posterior delts are lagging and this exercise is showing it. that's where you need to come in and figure out what's up with it.
    on the upright rows are you bringing the bar above nipple line? that can a lot of unneeded stress on your shoulders. it's not how high your hands are going with this exercises, it's your shoulders. it is a sholder exercise after all, your biceps are just indirectly involved the same way your tris are on an overhead press. try doing the upright row next time stopping the bar at your nipples and see how high your shoulders are. make sure they are doing the pulling. and if it still feels a little uncomfortable, drop the weight ten or 15 pounds. my triceps could easily handle alot of weigh on dips but it was killing my shoulders. so i humbled myself, dropped the weight, started working shoulders more which i was NOT doing, and in 4 weeks time i was dipping heavy weight again with no shoulder pain. your shoulders may be lagging, judging by the way you say upright rows are uncomfortable and face pulls hit our shoulders more.

    alright sorry for the long winded reply, now my opinion on your volume is: are you experiencing signs of overtraining? are you making gains? if the sanswer to these is no and yes, then it's fine. you've got it right that major muscle groups need mroe sets than smaller ones. when you say 16-20 sets for chest do you mean like 3 exercises 6 sets each? something like that? and yes the lower rep range with the most weight you can handle is going to build strength and size if your diet is in check. and yes high volume training as in lower weight, higher sets and reps is just not optimal for muscle growth or strength. well, it can help with muscle growth, but it damn sure ain't gona help you set any new PR's. have you read the training primer i posted in the training section? definetly take a look at that if you haven't. goes into great depth the difference between low volume heavy training the high volume training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjob View Post
    yes it true front raises hit the anterior head of the delt, side hits the medial head. i was just saying switch them up since they are similar and less is more. your medial head may not be directly targeted during a front raise but it is definetly getting hit. now even though the traps are above nipple line, that doesn't make them shoulders. they tie in with your back. if you still want to hit them on shoulder days that's fine, i just wanted to throw some suggestions out there for you. and i'm not gonna lie, i'm sort of telling you how i do things. what i've come to find that has worked for me. i've gotta remember everyone is different. you may be feeling the face pulls in your shoulders more so because you are not concentrating on your back contractions when you do it, or using improper form. sort of the same way you can be hitting your shoulders more than your chest on bench from not building a good base with your back and rolling your shoulders forward. or it could be your posterior delts are lagging and this exercise is showing it. that's where you need to come in and figure out what's up with it.
    on the upright rows are you bringing the bar above nipple line? that can a lot of unneeded stress on your shoulders. it's not how high your hands are going with this exercises, it's your shoulders. it is a sholder exercise after all, your biceps are just indirectly involved the same way your tris are on an overhead press. try doing the upright row next time stopping the bar at your nipples and see how high your shoulders are. make sure they are doing the pulling. and if it still feels a little uncomfortable, drop the weight ten or 15 pounds. my triceps could easily handle alot of weigh on dips but it was killing my shoulders. so i humbled myself, dropped the weight, started working shoulders more which i was NOT doing, and in 4 weeks time i was dipping heavy weight again with no shoulder pain. your shoulders may be lagging, judging by the way you say upright rows are uncomfortable and face pulls hit our shoulders more.

    alright sorry for the long winded reply, now my opinion on your volume is: are you experiencing signs of overtraining? are you making gains? if the sanswer to these is no and yes, then it's fine. you've got it right that major muscle groups need mroe sets than smaller ones. when you say 16-20 sets for chest do you mean like 3 exercises 6 sets each? something like that? and yes the lower rep range with the most weight you can handle is going to build strength and size if your diet is in check. and yes high volume training as in lower weight, higher sets and reps is just not optimal for muscle growth or strength. well, it can help with muscle growth, but it damn sure ain't gona help you set any new PR's. have you read the training primer i posted in the training section? definetly take a look at that if you haven't. goes into great depth the difference between low volume heavy training the high volume training.
    did some reading on rep ranges recently but will check out your post in a min! i have been making gains, shoulders seem to have kind of slowed down though i guess, same with legs. today i took out a quad exercise and took my total sets for legs down to 16; hopefully this will put me back on the road to growth.
    i'm going to try this with shoudlers too, how does taking out the front raises sound? that'll take my total sets down to 12 minus the shrugs.
    what i might also do is switch out my heavy work for 12-15 reps once every month? almost a deload week but not quite the same?

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    for legs try going around 7 sets for 3 reps each, as heavy as you can. start light, increase weight every set until you are at your 3 rep max. only do assistance exercises for your weaknesses. let's say your hams are your weak point, then do glute ham raises after punishing yourself on squats and call it a day man. try this for 4 weeks and see if you start making gains again. and as far as shoulders go, i would try and do way less man. especially if you are stalling. you gotta think, shoulders are getting hit on chest days when benching, on back days when rowing, and even on leg days when squating! i do one shoulder exercise only lately, and that's overhead press on chest days. and i don't go heavy. you may just need a break man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjob View Post
    first thing that sticks out to me is possible overtraining. it's a hard concept to pound into your head, and we all love going to the gym all the time and hittin it hard, but take 3 or 4 weeks and try this and see what happens. worst that can happen is you plateua and you know not to do it anymore. for one thing lose the abs and deadlift day. deadlift is one of the most taxing exercises on your CNS and you've already hit back that week? make that a rest day. start doing your deadlifts on back day, one week do just regular deads, next week just rack pulls, next week deficit deadlifts and roate like that. no need for 3-5 sets of each on the same day. you are hurting your gains. same goes for chest days, don't do incline flat and decline. rotate them. start focusing on slow controlled negatives and maybe some rest pause sets. keep track of your lifts and always try and beat them, if you've plateuaed then tackle it with a new approach. you won't gain if you're lifting the same weight with the same reps week after week. screw the hyper extensions, your lower back is getting blasted enough with deadlifts. do your wide grip seated rows one week then the next do bent over barbell rows. back and forth. same with lat pulldowns and pullups. weighted pullups, try and up the weight or reps each week. after a few weeks just do body weight pullups and burn out on those bitches. confuse your body. now that you don't have an ab and deadlift day, throw abs in with one of your days that takes the least amount of time compared to the others. your core is getting hit with deads and squats. 5 minutes is all it should take at the end of a workout to do some planks and whatever else is your favorite ab exercises. don't neglect your obliques! really no need to do squats and leg press on the same day. swith those out as well. after one or the other which ever is first you should have gone so hard you can't do the second exercise. if you can you didn't go hard enough. switch out squats once in a while with hip squats or lunges. switch out leg press sometimes for front squats. just pick one big one and kill yourself. then crawl out of the gym. and last but definetly not least is your diet. i don't know what it looks like but if you're bulking 3500 cals ain't enough for someone your size. there are calorie calculators out there, then you can start adding 100 or 200 cals a day until you start gaining. but for someone who weighs 191 i would guess somewhere around 4000 cals at a minimum. good luck bro
    I agree. Good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaDude007 View Post
    I agree. Good post.
    just done a shoulder workout, 12 sets. felt great. strength gains this week, got more reps on every set by 3 or 4 for seated dumbbell press.

    my belt just came so am going to employ the leg day ideas you ahve put forward. i'm definitely feeling better with lower volume man.

    current morning weight, 91kg (200lb) i'm not sure how to explain this, i haven't put on much fat at all...will update weight for you guys next monday along with lifts.

    ps are banana's a good carb source? i put them into my diet a while back, 1-2 a day

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    hell yeah man. that's what it's all about. you could be carrying some extra water but i'm sure atleast half that is lean mass. and bananas have about 50g of carbs, half of which are from sugar. if you're gonna eat 1 a day, i'd have it right after your workout about 20 minutes or so before your protein source for an insulin spike. you've got me thinking about nanners man, i used to do an apple a day with lunch but sadly haven't eaten fruit in about a month. i think i might make the switch to bananas.
    ThaDude007 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjob View Post
    hell yeah man. that's what it's all about. you could be carrying some extra water but i'm sure atleast half that is lean mass. and bananas have about 50g of carbs, half of which are from sugar. if you're gonna eat 1 a day, i'd have it right after your workout about 20 minutes or so before your protein source for an insulin spike. you've got me thinking about nanners man, i used to do an apple a day with lunch but sadly haven't eaten fruit in about a month. i think i might make the switch to bananas.
    There you go DonJob said it well. Keep up the good work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by donjob View Post
    hell yeah man. that's what it's all about. you could be carrying some extra water but i'm sure atleast half that is lean mass. and bananas have about 50g of carbs, half of which are from sugar. if you're gonna eat 1 a day, i'd have it right after your workout about 20 minutes or so before your protein source for an insulin spike. you've got me thinking about nanners man, i used to do an apple a day with lunch but sadly haven't eaten fruit in about a month. i think i might make the switch to bananas.
    love it! i watched a lecture from the university of california once called 'sugar: the bitter truth', i highly recommend anyone watch this as it was great. My point is that apparently fruit sugars do not count as your standard insulin spiking 'bad' sugars due to all the fiber that they are digested with. i eat one for breakfast with some peanut butter and sometimes with my post workout.

    last question, a bit off topic...but if i jumped on the juice, would my training need to change?

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