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  1. #1
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    Question 22 with test level of 300, 10 weeks cycle then clomid restart?
    As the title says I'm a 22 year old with low testosterone consciously dealing with the problem for 11 months. Over this time I've gone to several doctors - some admitting that my blood work is low but they don't feel comfortable treating me, others telling me that Free testosterone do not matter(every single reading has come back out of range), and others telling me that because my Total T is in range(280-330) that all the problems are not linked to a testosterone deficiency. I was holding out for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) or a clomid restart from an endo but having seen the newest one recently and him telling me that I need to get Bio-T done twice more and that my last 6 blood tests are useless due to them not being preformed at his hospital, I have decided to try myself. The real deal sealer was when my next appt he wanted to see me for was Nov. 1. - I'm going into 4th year uni and don't want to deal with the stress of this all throughout my school year.

    - If anyone is more interested I can post blood work from the last year, but I didn't want to hit anyone with a wall of text.

    Anyways my plan is to get the two bio-T tests this friday and the next, then start with

    10 weeks - 400mg test Eth @ 200mg 2x wk, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) @ 250mg x2 week, and nolva @ 20mg ed

    2 weeks

    then 8 week PCT attempting a restart/ SERM test

    Clomid 25mgx2 ed and 10mg of nolva to keep E2 under control

    any thoughts - will the restart work after the testosterone cycle(my first)? Should I just try a serm test from the start?

  2. #2
    Moderator Megatron28's Avatar
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    That is a high dose. Not in the typical testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) range. Are you looking to cycle or do TRT?

  3. #3
    69 noway55's Avatar
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    If you have low test now I doubt that the clomid will do anything in the long term. It may temporarily raise your test levels, but i suspect after you stop using it they'll go back to what they were before (if not lower due to shutting yourself down from the test cycle).

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    I want to use the high dose to get rid of some scapular problems and muscle imbalances from overworking - So yes I would like to cycle that dose for 10 weeks, but im wondering if the 10 weeks of that will screw up my levels even more and lessen the chance that a SERM restart would work.

    Frankly I'm pissed off at they system, they have known these levels for too long without doing anything - I've never cycled before there wasn't even a chance of it because i was terrified of needles before I was forced to get all these blood tests.

    The emotional and physical roller coaster has taken its toll, and I want to see what it would be like mentally to have that much test.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway55 View Post
    If you have low test now I doubt that the clomid will do anything in the long term. It may temporarily raise your test levels, but i suspect after you stop using it they'll go back to what they were before (if not lower due to shutting yourself down from the test cycle).
    Would not the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) incorporated during the test cycle prevent me from getting any worse before the SERM restart, due to the testosterone not shutting me down?

  6. #6
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    Before you do anything make sure you find out if your primary or secondary as well. So get tests for LH and FSH.

    Hcg will shut down your test production (dosage will differ between individuals)

  7. #7
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    I have LH and FSH actually! Actually I have all my Blood results!

    Oct 7 2011 Range:
    Total Test 12.4 (7.6-31.4 nmol/L)
    Prolactin 16 (<18)
    Free Test 24.7 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)

    Nov 23 2011
    Free Test 40.5 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)

    Feb 6 2012
    Free Test 25.4 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)

    May 4 2012
    Total Test 10.0 (8.4-28.7 nmol/L)
    Free Test 25.4 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)
    Bioav. Test 4.8 (2.0-14.0 nmol/L)
    Follitropin(FSH) 4 (2-8)
    Lutropin (LH) 4 (2-6)
    Sex Hormone Bind. Globulin 33.3 (10-70.0 nmol/L)

    June 8th
    Homocysteine 7.0umol/L (<=15)
    TOTAL PSA 0.37ug/L (0.00-4.00)

    Lutropin (LH) 2 IU/L (2-6)
    Progesterone 2 (<4)

    Estradiol-17 BETA <70pmol/L (<150)

    Total Test 11.1 nmol/L (8.4-28.7)
    FREE TEST 32.8 pmol/L (31-94)
    DHEA-S 7.2umol/L (7.6-17.4)
    8AM Cortisol 579 nmol/L (NO STANDARD VALUE LISTED)


    the Low DHEA could be the issue which would indicate secondary, though a couple doctors have indicated my testicles are on the small side of average...

    the latest endo - the guy who all other endos refer their patients to for T issues in Toronto mentioned this about the DHEA though last Thursday "Your DHEA is low but I'm not going near that because it has no effect on the male testosterone function - if you were a woman that be a different story" ... which goes against everything I thought.

  8. #8
    69 noway55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broshifstalin View Post
    Would not the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) incorporated during the test cycle prevent me from getting any worse before the SERM restart, due to the testosterone not shutting me down?
    if you inject test your natural production of it is going to be suppressed regardless of whether you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) or not (granted Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will probably make post cycle therapy (pct) a little easier)

  9. #9
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    * Sorry about the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) thing - I ment that while on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) since they are not atrophying would there be any risk of it negatively affecting my test levels further or perhaps hurting the chances of the SERM test which I'm following it with
    Last edited by Broshifstalin; 08-19-2012 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Double post

  10. #10
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    A just bio test doesnt really help much. You should request a full panel again( lh, fsh, free, total, dhea-s, e2 sensitive, Dht) and another a week later.
    Dhea is the pregnitor of Testosterone. Which means testosterone is created from dhea among other things.
    Hcg will stimulate your testicles to produce testosterone but will cause lh and fsh to halt, which will cause shutdown once Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stopped.

    If you are going for a restart this protocol has worked wonders for many people curtisy of cashout

    Week Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) clomid Nolva letro
    1 M/W/F/Su 2000 1.25 M/Th
    2 T/Th/Sa 2000 1.25 M/Th
    3 M/W/F 2000 1.25 M/Th
    3 Sat/Sun 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    4 Every Day 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    5 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    6 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    7 40 1.25 M/Th
    8 40 1.25 M/Th
    9 1.25 M/Th
    10 1.25 M/Th

    Btw where are you located?
    Last edited by RedLang; 08-20-2012 at 05:03 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedLang View Post
    A just bio test doesnt really help much. You should request a full panel again( lh, fsh, free, total, dhea-s, e2 sensitive, Dht) and another a week later.
    Dhea is the pregnitor of Testosterone. Which means testosterone is created from dhea among other things.
    Hcg will stimulate your testicles to produce testosterone but will cause lh and fsh to halt, which will cause shutdown once hcg stopped.

    If you are going for a restart this protocol has worked wonders for many people curtisy of cashout

    Week HCG clomid Nolva letro
    1 M/W/F/Su 2000 1.25 M/Th
    2 T/Th/Sa 2000 1.25 M/Th
    3 M/W/F 2000 1.25 M/Th
    3 Sat/Sun 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    4 Every Day 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    5 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    6 100 40 1.25 M/Th
    7 40 1.25 M/Th
    8 40 1.25 M/Th
    9 1.25 M/Th
    10 1.25 M/Th

    Btw where are you located?

    Im from Barrie, Ontario
    - recently ive been to Toronto to see a "androgeny expert" and he said so many stupid things during the appointment I'm am leaning towards doing this myself - I brought up the DHEA with him and he said
    " FT levels were a useless indicator and that they notorious for showing underscored results and he told me that the last 11 months of blood work don't mean anything"
    "FT is a useless value and bio-available is the only way to measure how it really is represented in your system, which just makes the last 6 labs of bloodwork meaningless to me"
    "Your DHEA is low but I'm not going near that because it has no effect on the male testosterone function - if you were a woman that be a different story"

    also before you mention it - I have contacted the Burlington Mens health Clinic - their waitlist is till next may - once I'm done university basically - so ill have to suffer through 4th year with these symptoms

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broshifstalin View Post
    Im from Barrie, Ontario
    - recently ive been to Toronto to see a "androgeny expert" and he said so many stupid things during the appointment I'm am leaning towards doing this myself - I brought up the DHEA with him and he said
    " FT levels were a useless indicator and that they notorious for showing underscored results and he told me that the last 11 months of blood work don't mean anything"
    "FT is a useless value and bio-available is the only way to measure how it really is represented in your system, which just makes the last 6 labs of bloodwork meaningless to me"
    "Your DHEA is low but I'm not going near that because it has no effect on the male testosterone function - if you were a woman that be a different story"

    also before you mention it - I have contacted the Burlington Mens health Clinic - their waitlist is till next may - once I'm done university basically - so ill have to suffer through 4th year with these symptoms
    Good to see another Barrie member here! Sorry to hear about your issues, im in a similar situation myself and doctors havent been very helpful. Its mainly because of our age (im 23 myself) that they arent as willing to prescribe testosterone. Want my advice? Cycle but come off with a strong post cycle therapy (pct) like cashouts previously outlined. That is what I will be doing until Im old enough to be more seriously considered for trt. Hope this helps

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cross88 View Post
    Good to see another Barrie member here! Sorry to hear about your issues, im in a similar situation myself and doctors havent been very helpful. Its mainly because of our age (im 23 myself) that they arent as willing to prescribe testosterone. Want my advice? Cycle but come off with a strong post cycle therapy (pct) like cashouts previously outlined. That is what I will be doing until Im old enough to be more seriously considered for trt. Hope this helps
    As a fellow Barrie member im sure you can agree that the docs in this area are useless when it comes to this sort of thing - Family GP has basically told me hes not referring me to anyone anymore and I've heard the "its in range obviousely not a problem" argument so may times its sickening. The latest setback was the BioT - a doctor preformed that and with a Bioav. test of 4.8 (2.0-14.0 nmol/L) he said theres no problem what so ever.

    Ive already got a source for Nolva if decided to run a serm test for 10 weeks at 25mg ED, It should at least allow me to determine if I'm secondary or primary and if not theres always cashouts program.

    As another question will Nolva fix my out of range DHEA levels ? ---DHEA-S 7.2umol/L (7.6-17.4) ---- as DHEA is also important do i need to be doing anything for it as well?

  14. #14
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    go see dr welchner in aurora. you don't need a referal, he charges 700 bucks for the year. but he is 10 times better then the guy in burlington. you will not get help from any endo here. i've seen three and all were a waste of time.

  15. #15
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    im in the UK im 23 and no doctors take me seriously at all over here fucking NHS shit!!!! i had really low LH and FSH and prolactin was high but they said i was fine i mean my nipples were leaking and i was not taking any AAS at the time so now as they dont do shit and i have had lack of libido for like 1 year i am taking my first cycle i am praying i get my libido back even for a short period of time... then do a strong post cycle therapy (pct) and hope things will even out for my HPTA..

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam schriebr View Post
    im in the UK im 23 and no doctors take me seriously at all over here fucking NHS shit!!!! i had really low LH and FSH and prolactin was high but they said i was fine i mean my nipples were leaking and i was not taking any AAS at the time so now as they dont do shit and i have had lack of libido for like 1 year i am taking my first cycle i am praying i get my libido back even for a short period of time... then do a strong post cycle therapy (pct) and hope things will even out for my HPTA..
    Fuuuuu your nipples leaked eh? was it like a browish muddy water? had that in April when I was going through exams in school all the stress just messed with my levels, wish I had gotten a blood test at that time

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    Quote Originally Posted by cross88 View Post
    Good to see another Barrie member here! Sorry to hear about your issues, im in a similar situation myself and doctors havent been very helpful. Its mainly because of our age (im 23 myself) that they arent as willing to prescribe testosterone. Want my advice? Cycle but come off with a strong post cycle therapy (pct) like cashouts previously outlined. That is what I will be doing until Im old enough to be more seriously considered for trt. Hope this helps
    send me a pm bud - I don't have enuff posts yet

  18. #18
    zgx
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    As far as the cashout restart be careful with the type of Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (letro) he was using as it's quite strong. Look for cashout's restart post so you can see all the details (I'm on my iPhone now), he also mentioned a few modifications he should have done in retrospect with regards to dosages.

    Also for cashout I believe he concluded that his experienced low levels were caused not by his bodys inability to produce T under normal circumstances but he had overstrained and what not.

    With all that being said a restart attempt should not be out of the question but I believe the body should be in a better physical shape, more muscle, less fat etc in order to produce the desired natty test numbers desired if indeed your body is capable of doing it so.

    So you're 22 with low T. What are your symptoms? What is your BF like? What made you begin to test your T levels?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zgx View Post
    As far as the cashout restart be careful with the type of Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (letro) he was using as it's quite strong. Look for cashout's restart post so you can see all the details (I'm on my iPhone now), he also mentioned a few modifications he should have done in retrospect with regards to dosages.

    Also for cashout I believe he concluded that his experienced low levels were caused not by his bodys inability to produce T under normal circumstances but he had overstrained and what not.

    With all that being said a restart attempt should not be out of the question but I believe the body should be in a better physical shape, more muscle, less fat etc in order to produce the desired natty test numbers desired if indeed your body is capable of doing it so.

    So you're 22 with low T. What are your symptoms? What is your BF like? What made you begin to test your T levels?
    Symptoms were no libido, no morning wood, depression anxiety, foggy memory, terrible times falling asleep, terrible often broken up sleep with frequent trips to the washroom during the night - these were the reasons I originally decided to get blood tests the testosterone was just me curious to see what it was at since I had looked into my symptoms and there was some crossover - but I didn't really think it was a going to be a problem.

    I'm 5'10, currently I sit at 158 with a bf of 8%, I lift heavy in a 5 day split at their highest my big three lifts were 405DL, 405squat, and 225(x5) for bench, as of now they are down because I'm swimming 3-4 times a week for between 3000-3500m as competitive swimming is my big priority and it starts the 10th.

    In addition to my other symptoms all of which I still have it has come to my attention recently that a pins and needles feeling in my testicles is not normal (I've had this feeling on and off for at least 4 years - and just though it was an indication that things were healthy and cell production was in overdrive... turns out nope)

    Cashout's restart is pricy with all that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and I'm not sure what the cause is for my Low T so I've decided to do a serm test first ---- Ive got my hands on some taxoxifen dosed at 50mg and will start a SERM test tomorrow night @ 25mg ed for 8 weeks and get blood work done in the 4th week 8th week and 12 week to determine any positive effects and if my LH, FSH and T respond well - are there any modifications I should make to this?

  20. #20
    zgx
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    Well in cashout's case his testes had not been working in a while, he wasn't doing Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) if I remember correctly. If you do lower dosages of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) your balls will continue to work. Something to think about...regardless your LH/FSH levels will tank during the exogenous T cycle.

    Hopefully DET-OAK pitches in with his .02 - I'd like to see what he thinks with regards to your protocol and restart attempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zgx View Post
    Well in cashout's case his testes had not been working in a while, he wasn't doing Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) if I remember correctly. If you do lower dosages of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) your balls will continue to work. Something to think about...regardless your LH/FSH levels will tank during the exogenous T cycle.

    Hopefully DET-OAK pitches in with his .02 - I'd like to see what he thinks with regards to your protocol and restart attempt.
    Yea the T-Cycle will be on hold - there's no use complicating things further before I figure out whats wrong in the first place, I'll just be doing the serm test and see what I can discover through the blood work but as for Nolvadex dosing throughout those 8 weeks I'd love to have peoples opinions on it should I go higher at first ect.

    If the serm test fails to bring up my levels while on nolva though the T-Cycle will definitely be the fallback until I can find an understanding doctor.

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    So this is kinda a tricky matter - friday after my second Bio-T testosterone test the I began my nolvadex restart with 20mg of nolvadex before bed, today I get a call from the endo in toronto saying he needs even more bloodwork... should i stop the attempt at a restart or continue w nolvadex and what is the half life of its effects, should i just tell him out right I didn't think I would be hearing from him till November and couldn't wait that long so decided to take the serm test on my own?

  23. #23
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    id drop the nolva, otherwise it might give you an inaccurate reading on your levels. Itd half-life is around 4-5 days i believe but if you were only taking it for the weekend you should be ok

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cross88 View Post
    id drop the nolva, otherwise it might give you an inaccurate reading on your levels. Itd half-life is around 4-5 days i believe but if you were only taking it for the weekend you should be ok
    Thats what I'll do then, I've taken it

    Fri - 40mg, Sat-20mg, Sun 20mg, Mon 20mg, Tue 20mg, Wed 40mg

    just to be sure I wont get the blood work done for two weeks - even if it managed to raise my levels from that 6 days, they should be back to baseline by then no?

  25. #25
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    How about Triptorelin. I was thinking of giving that a shot.

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