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  • 1 Post By cmc83
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    Healthy longterm test levels to remain well and feel good...?
    I just finally got scripted from my doc for watson test cyp at 200mg per week to start but i feel that dosage may be a bit too high. I told him i read somewhere that having test levels above 1000 may kill your lipid profile and such but he didnt seem to be concerned at all and told me that some guys prefer them to be around 1500 and do just fine. Is this an individual case my vary thing on how high you can keep your test levels and not suffer long terms bad effects? I read in the dosage thread that a guy who is apparently a nurse claimed that above 1000 and your lipids will go to crap. Is this really the case? I was thinking of starting around 100-125mg per week to be on safe side. i know this doc is well read as he was talking to me about getting me on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) therapy next month and wanting to closely monitor my E2 since i am gyno prone and had it removed before. I could easily get him to up my test dosage if i wanted and write me scripts for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as well as aromasin but i just want to make sure i make good decisions as im in this for the long haul, not to just "get big short term" as i was idiotically in my early 20's. Thinking with that stupid mindset is what got me into this situation to begin with with screwed up test levels and such. Any thoughts or opinions? Thank you as always, i really appreciate you guys and your input.

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    When I started my therapy my testosterone was at 136. I was started at 100mg of test cyp then gradually went up. I'm at 150 now but I wish I was at 200 because I still feel like crap

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    Amateur Bodybuilder dfeaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8Wall View Post
    I just finally got scripted from my doc for watson test cyp at 200mg per week to start but i feel that dosage may be a bit too high. I told him i read somewhere that having test levels above 1000 may kill your lipid profile and such but he didnt seem to be concerned at all and told me that some guys prefer them to be around 1500 and do just fine. Is this an individual case my vary thing on how high you can keep your test levels and not suffer long terms bad effects? I read in the dosage thread that a guy who is apparently a nurse claimed that above 1000 and your lipids will go to crap. Is this really the case? I was thinking of starting around 100-125mg per week to be on safe side. i know this doc is well read as he was talking to me about getting me on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) therapy next month and wanting to closely monitor my E2 since i am gyno prone and had it removed before. I could easily get him to up my test dosage if i wanted and write me scripts for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as well as aromasin but i just want to make sure i make good decisions as im in this for the long haul, not to just "get big short term" as i was idiotically in my early 20's. Thinking with that stupid mindset is what got me into this situation to begin with with screwed up test levels and such. Any thoughts or opinions? Thank you as always, i really appreciate you guys and your input.
    You can always go with the lower dose and see what your blood work shows. You also may want to consider splitting the dose and injecting 2x/week for more stable levels and avoid estro spikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LowTDude View Post
    When I started my therapy my testosterone was at 136. I was started at 100mg of test cyp then gradually went up. I'm at 150 now but I wish I was at 200 because I still feel like crap

    What are your test levels on the 150mg? Your doc wont up you to 200mg per week? I would just be really stern with them in telling them you still feel awful and see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfeaton View Post
    You can always go with the lower dose and see what your blood work shows. You also may want to consider splitting the dose and injecting 2x/week for more stable levels and avoid estro spikes.


    I keep hearing others say the twice per week is better way to go so i do think i will for sure be doing that just judging by ive seen so many people say twice can help keep more stable levels of test as well as keep E2 down. Guess im going to have to find other injection sites rather than just glutes for twice a week. Hoping i can get the balls to go with delts and quads as well. I am such a puss when it comes to needles for some reason that its almost embarrassing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8Wall View Post
    I just finally got scripted from my doc for watson test cyp at 200mg per week to start but i feel that dosage may be a bit too high. I told him i read somewhere that having test levels above 1000 may kill your lipid profile and such but he didnt seem to be concerned at all and told me that some guys prefer them to be around 1500 and do just fine. Is this an individual case my vary thing on how high you can keep your test levels and not suffer long terms bad effects? I read in the dosage thread that a guy who is apparently a nurse claimed that above 1000 and your lipids will go to crap. Is this really the case? I was thinking of starting around 100-125mg per week to be on safe side. i know this doc is well read as he was talking to me about getting me on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) therapy next month and wanting to closely monitor my E2 since i am gyno prone and had it removed before. I could easily get him to up my test dosage if i wanted and write me scripts for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as well as aromasin but i just want to make sure i make good decisions as im in this for the long haul, not to just "get big short term" as i was idiotically in my early 20's. Thinking with that stupid mindset is what got me into this situation to begin with with screwed up test levels and such. Any thoughts or opinions? Thank you as always, i really appreciate you guys and your input.
    I think your idea of starting at a lower dosage and then increasing is probably best. As far as frequency, I personaly think every 5 days is as often as I'd like to do it (that's what I do). Twice a week MIGHT be better (could be debated) every day might be even better, or a constant IV drip perfect, but you have to find a happy medium between effect, convenience, and scar tissue concerns.

  7. #7
    Amateur Bodybuilder dfeaton's Avatar
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    I use slin pins to inject, so scar tissue is a not an issue.

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    Nice that your PCP willing to let your T get over 1000. Wish mine would. He wants mine to stay at 800 or less. I'd rather be around 1000-1200 but he would freak if it got that high. Trade you drs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8Wall View Post
    I keep hearing others say the twice per week is better way to go so i do think i will for sure be doing that just judging by ive seen so many people say twice can help keep more stable levels of test as well as keep E2 down. Guess im going to have to find other injection sites rather than just glutes for twice a week. Hoping i can get the balls to go with delts and quads as well. I am such a puss when it comes to needles for some reason that its almost embarrassing!
    Gr8: Twice per week is a great idea, as it halves the size of the injection, which means you can use tiny needles, it won't scar and you can pin pretty much in any muscle. Warm the T, draw it with a fat needle, swap to a 25g 3/4" needle and pin delts. Easy peasy. Way easier than glutes, less pain (i.e. zero) for me than quads.

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    What gauge needle are you guys using that don't leave scar tissue? Bigfella mentioned a slin pin at 25g. I use 25 gauge and its not bad but not really much different then what most use which is 23 gauge. I though you guys were back loading insuline needles which is much smaller than 25 gauge..... Like 30 gauge I think.

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    Amateur Bodybuilder dfeaton's Avatar
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    I use a 29 gauge 1/2" pin.

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    25G 1.5" works with any location, in the delts just leave .5" sticking out and rotate injection sites. testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is only one factor in your lipid profile, diet and excercise play a large roll as well. Everyone is different and reacts to compounds in their own way. Blood tests will tell you what is going on and where to make adjustments.
    Last edited by Chainman; 07-08-2012 at 07:02 PM.

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    You can definitely go skinnier than 25g - it's just that I'm really macho and can handle the hurt.

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    And to answer your question : I'm currently on 0.5ml E every three days, which is 210mg of pure T per week. I just got tested at 1300. I like it.

    And lipids are, and have always been, fine.

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    It looks like your doc is getting to the bottom line quicker. Most start at 100 per week and work up. Unless you are older you will find most guys in here are goin more than 100 per week usually somewhere between 120-160. personally I was at 100 and wasnt enough Im at 160 now I think its right but my E2 is out of whack so not getting much out of it.

    As for days I was at 7 and now and 6 and that works great for me. There is the debate of twice a week and not saying im against it but my self would rather do every 5-6 days then every 3. I know you can get smaller pins but im very young and the idea of scar tissue catching up to me in 20 years is a concern. Also to be frank to have to mess with needles twice a week, warmining, going on vacation etc, once a week is good for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguy9129 View Post
    It looks like your doc is getting to the bottom line quicker. Most start at 100 per week and work up. Unless you are older you will find most guys in here are goin more than 100 per week usually somewhere between 120-160. personally I was at 100 and wasnt enough Im at 160 now I think its right but my E2 is out of whack so not getting much out of it.

    As for days I was at 7 and now and 6 and that works great for me. There is the debate of twice a week and not saying im against it but my self would rather do every 5-6 days then every 3. I know you can get smaller pins but im very young and the idea of scar tissue catching up to me in 20 years is a concern. Also to be frank to have to mess with needles twice a week, warmining, going on vacation etc, once a week is good for me.
    When you refer to "warming" are you trying to get the test cyp above room temperature? Or are you storing it in the refrigerator or something?

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    mine stays at room temp in bathroom I dont think you should be putting in fridge there is nothing saying to put in fridge. I dont warm mine, I was just saying with a super small needle thats an added pain to worry about. Like I said Im out camping, boating, vacation, families house visiting etc, and carrying around double the needles, trying to wam something etc. is not in the cards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFella View Post
    Gr8: Twice per week is a great idea, as it halves the size of the injection, which means you can use tiny needles, it won't scar and you can pin pretty much in any muscle. Warm the T, draw it with a fat needle, swap to a 25g 3/4" needle and pin delts. Easy peasy. Way easier than glutes, less pain (i.e. zero) for me than quads.
    its also a way to keep constant elevated E levels. You guys are not taking the ratio into consideration and multiple injections per week of a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose can be the worst thing for some guys.

    Imagine this:

    You T goes up to 1700 and falls to 800 on every 7 day injection pattern. Estrogen goes up along with T and falls with T.


    Now take that same dose and split it up, your E never goes as high, but also never drops as low.......................... the value is less important than the ratio.

    Im here to bust the 1000 injection per week myth...................... and I got lots of ammo

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    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
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    Riddle me this Riddle me that, why did the lower dose group have more side effects, if keeping your T from spiking regulates E sides?

    300mg vs 600mg of testosterone

    Now riddle me this riddle me that: Why is that the time when you are the healthiest, and have the most function ( young natural ) are your testosterone levels all over the place naturally? Why is a bad idea to get an up and down swing? As i said I know it makes sense on paper, but that is not what physiology has taught us is best.

    Ever wondered why every hormone in the body is secreted on a pulsitale pattern? GH is and studies have shown that humans and animals respond better to large peaks and drops, not stability like rhGH produces??

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    Here is the full study, in it you will find that more people in the 300mg group had cholesterol and acne problems.

    We conclude that changes in circulating testosterone concentrations, induced by GnRH agonist and testosterone administration, are associated with testosterone dose- and concentration-dependent changes in fat-free mass, muscle size, strength and power, fat mass, hemoglobin, HDL cholesterol, and IGF-I levels, in conformity with a single linear dose-response relationship. However, different androgen-dependent processes have different testosterone dose-response relationships.
    The treatment regimen was well tolerated. There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose.
    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 07-10-2012 at 05:45 PM.

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    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
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    Total cholesterol, plasma low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and triglyceride levels did not change significantly at any dose. Serum PSA, creatinine, bilirubin, alanine aminotransferase, and alkaline phosphatase did not change significantly in any group, but aspartate aminotransferase decreased significantly in the 25-mg group. Two men in the 25-mg group, five in the 50-mg group, three in the 125-mg group, seven in the 300-mg group, and two in the 600-mg group developed acne. One man receiving the 50-mg dose reported decreased ability to achieve erections.
    Side effects are all across the board and simply stating that splitting up shots controls estrogen because it makes sense, doesn't make any damn sense. Frankly it is not what is seen in the clinical practice, so those having better luck with multiple injections weekly seem to be few and far between. Many of my guys have actually went back to once a week or 10 day injections.

    This does not mean that multiple shots per week can't help some, but to broadly suggest it to everyone is not the correct information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    Side effects are all across the board and simply stating that splitting up shots controls estrogen because it makes sense, doesn't make any damn sense. Frankly it is not what is seen in the clinical practice, so those having better luck with multiple injections weekly seem to be few and far between. Many of my guys have actually went back to once a week or 10 day injections.

    This does not mean that multiple shots per week can't help some, but to broadly suggest it to everyone is not the correct information.
    So as I understand in my situation (i get only ampoule in 250mg/1ml of test E), I don't need to split it and inject every 5 days? Just inject it every 10?
    But it lasts only for 7 days, so what happens next 3 until injection? no bumps?

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    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
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    technically the half-life for enanthate is 10-12 days. I can't tell you how much to inject, but with a small dose like that E5D is the most frequent I would go.

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    Thanks for the info Oak
    IMT staff likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    technically the half-life for enanthate is 10-12 days. I can't tell you how much to inject, but with a small dose like that E5D is the most frequent I would go.
    Well, as I see there are two options:
    E5D injecting 125mg/ml -> more mess by splitting it to two syringes and etc.
    or
    E10D injecting whole ampoule 250mg/ml -> less mess

    And as you claim, the results should be the same?

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