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  1. #1
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  2. #2
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    I am doing IF and I have low t...wonder if I stopped doing IF and got off all my supplements what would happen.

  3. #3
    j2048b
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    this is awesome, ive ran the warrior diet (WD) and a few others

    i wonder if 3j has changed his stance about running IF protocols?


    so do you guys recommend this way of eating along with peptides? i have been told that when on peptides, depending on how many shots per day that one needs carbs about 30 min afterwards the shots, or they ae at least taken right before food is consumed?

  4. #4
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    Well the reason why fasting on and shortly after the peptides is because any fat or carb intake will spike insulin. Insulin will blunt GH secretion. So by fasting you will get a much larger spike.

    This is true wether someone is on them or not.
    Last edited by IMT staff; 05-06-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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  5. #5
    Junior Bodybuilder FL3X MAGNUM's Avatar
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    Good reading

  6. #6
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    3J is def the guy to go to for specifics on this stuff.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM View Post
    Good reading
    Thank You!

    I will keep them coming then.

    Make sure you guys rate the thread, for the ones you like.
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  8. #8
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    Great article
    Keep em'm coming!

  9. #9
    Junior Bodybuilder Packgus's Avatar
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    3J shot down IF big time when I brought this up a couple of months ago.

    I actually tried IF for a few months. I lost some weight but I also lost some muscle mass and some strength in the gym.

  10. #10
    j2048b
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packgus View Post
    3J shot down IF big time when I brought this up a couple of months ago.

    I actually tried IF for a few months. I lost some weight but I also lost some muscle mass and some strength in the gym.
    the last diet i had 3j do, he actually allowed me to try the IF way and he did my diet in that aspect, it was great,

    i did loose fat, minimal muscle loss, but nothing like i had hoped for,

    it was not 3j's fault but my own for being more lazzy towards my diet than anything!!

    IF someone wants to do AN IF type diet, always , always,

    ADD IN BCAA!!! WITH EVERY UNDERFEED MEAL THRU THE DAY, (depending on what IF type your using, lean gains, or WD?)

    this will help with muscle loss, and energy to an extent!

  11. #11
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    This type of dieting is ESPECIALLY important with certain type's of GH optimization I like keeping up with the new information, what works for some may not work for others.

    Good Feedback on the practical application fellas.
    Last edited by IMT staff; 05-07-2012 at 08:21 PM.
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  12. #12
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    I did IF for three months and got ripped (less than 10% BF). I tried it out on my last cut.
    I followed the leangains (google it) program that advocates the use of BCCAs during the fasted period to reduce muscle lose. The guy promotes that you will lose Bf and gain new muscle. I never gained, but i never lose any size (I base this statement on weekly measurements). IMO, it is the best cut I have ever done.
    I am cutting now. This time I opted to try 3J. I am in my 5th week of the Advanced Carb Cycling Program.

  13. #13
    BD7
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMT staff View Post
    Well the reason why fasting on and shortly after the peptides is because any fat or carb intake will spike insulin. Insulin will blunt GH secretion. So by fasting you will get a much larger spike.

    This is true wether someone is on them or not.
    IMT, do you have any research that shows fat spiking insulin. I know protein and of course carbs spike insulin. More specifically certain amino acids spike insulin for example L-Leucine and L-glutamine I believe are very insulinogenic. However they spike insulin without raising blood glucose as carbs would. That's why they are popular for post workout drinks especially when low carbing.

    jbc.org/content/264/4/2037.short


    soc-bdr.org/rds/archive/5/4_winter/original_data/amino_acids_and_insulin_secretion/index_en.html

    Let's keep the peptide and IF discussion going! I've done quite a bit of IF with mixed but mostly good results.
    Last edited by BD7; 05-08-2012 at 02:29 AM.

  14. #14
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    FFA supress glucose uptake and oxidation, resulting in muscular insulin resistance, without reducing insulin secretion.

    These effects seem to be dependent on dietary carbohydrate restriction.
    FFA-induced muscular insulin resistance is a physiological response to low availability of glucose.

    Under normal conditions, this serves to maintain adequate BG levels. When FFA are in excess, there might be a rise in BG levels, because oxidation and release of FFA are not coupled. This leads to insulin resistance in other tissues like the liver (15), consequently failing to control hepatic glucose output.
    Lucas Tafur: Safe starches, blood glucose and insulin
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  15. #15
    BD7
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    A diet high in fat and low in carbohydrates will reduce glucose metabolism and increase fat metabolism. Conversely, a high carbohydrate-low fat diet increases glucose utilization and decreases fatty acid metabolism.
    Increased glucose utilization implies upregulation of glucose membrane transporters and enzymes involved in glycolysis. Additionally, it reduces the activity of enzymes involved in fat metabolism.
    Increased fatty acid metabolism inhibits key glycolytic enzymes, as well as GLUT membrane translocation. It also interrupts glucose/insulin signaling and stimulates lipolytic enzymes.
    Above is from the same article you referenced.

    I failed to see anything about dietary FAT provoking an immediate insulin response. I believe what he was saying is a chronicly high serum FFA's could lead to insulin resistance in muscle tissue as well as the liver.
    We know FAT does not turn into glucose as protein can in the liver (gluconeogenisis), and carbs do.. glucolysis, so those will generate a insulin response as when you get a glucose spike, it's insulin's job to keep BG levels at healthy levels. I know from my own glucose testing, hundreds of tests with a glucose meter and testing strips, dietary fat does not increase my BG levels. The article you reference makes some good points however in that, when I eat extremely low carb, insulin is usually very low and therefore, I will wake with higher BG levels than if I have a small amount of glucose before bed and therefore, get an insulin response which helps control the BG. Total calories eaten and energy expenditure also play be huge role in BG levels regardless of macronutrient breakdown. I think the article you referenced did a good job of stating that.
    Also if you look at any food insulin index (similar to a food glycemic index), you'll see very few high fat foods make the list as they don't produce a high blood insulin response. Good article. Thanks.
    Last edited by BD7; 05-08-2012 at 02:30 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD7 View Post
    Above is from the same article you referenced.

    I failed to see anything about dietary FAT provoking an immediate insulin response. I believe what he was saying is a chronicly high serum FFA's could lead to insulin resistance in muscle tissue as well as the liver.
    We know FAT does not turn into glucose as protein can in the liver (gluconeogenisis), and carbs do.. glucolysis, so those will generate a insulin response as when you get a glucose spike, it's insulin's job to keep BG levels at healthy levels. I know from my own glucose testing, hundreds of tests with a glucose meter and testing strips, dietary fat does not increase my BG levels. The article you reference makes some good points however in that, when I eat extremely low carb, insulin is usually very low and therefore, I will wake with higher BG levels than if I have a small amount of glucose before bed and therefore, get an insulin response which helps control the BG. Total calories eaten and energy expenditure also play be huge role in BG levels regardless of macronutrient breakdown. I think the article you referenced did a good job of stating that.
    Also if you look at any food insulin index (similar to a food glycemic index), you'll see very few high fat foods make the list as they don't produce a high blood insulin response. Good article. Thanks.
    I think your concentrating on only 1 aspect of FFA. Despite an immediate insulin response, FFA's have been shown numerous times to effect somatropic patterns. Its not a matter of "IF" it happens, its a matter of how.

    Fineberg et al. showed that GH release by protein ingestion can be inhibited but not completely abolished by increases in postprandial FFA concentrations (14). These studies show that alterations in FFA concentrations also modified GH secretion. Together, all previous mentioned studies show that both plasma glucose and plasma FFA concentrations influence GH secretion. Therefore, the question remains of which macronutrients are most responsible for interference with the protein-induced GH secretion. More research with studies that only add either carbohydrates or fat to the protein being assessed is necessary.
    http://www.eje-online.org/content/159/1/15.full

    The fact that he says " elevated levels of FFA" contribute to blunting Gh secretion brings about numerous other questions.

    There is ample evidence that FFA augments your secretion, the problem is there are too many variables to consider to simply say " fat causes rise in insulin" although to get my point across here it was easiest to to make a blanket statement.
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  17. #17
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    the clinical relevance of the results of this study, however, remains to be investigated. these results show that in normal healthy women, gh responses increase after oral ingestion of proteins, but not when proteins are combined with carbohydrates and fat. it is not known whether this effect also occurs in a gh-deficient population, such as in visceral obese subjects. In the visceral obese subjects, gh replacement therapy reduced weight and in particular decreased fat mass and increased lean body mass (17, 18); moreover it appeared that weight loss also restored gh concentrations to normal values (19). It may be useful to explore the possibility of adding only one other macronutrient to soy protein in order to be able to design a diet that could stimulate gh secretion in such a population.


    The bottom-line is that fasting has shown to increase GH secretion, so it is best to do this while using the peptides, I have used them more times than i can remember. In order to get the best results, or to ensure that you will get the best results, it only makes sense to fast.

    Im not saying your wrong at all, I'm just saying its better to be safe than sorry.
    Last edited by IMT staff; 05-08-2012 at 07:23 AM.
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  18. #18
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    High-fat food ingestion before exercise blunts the GH response in adults
    A high-fat meal before exercise, therefore (a common event in Western societies), may reduce the growth factor response to exercise in children, with potential implications for growth and development.
    Effect of a high-fat meal on the growth hormone response to exercise in children. | Mendeley

    Since the amount of carbohydrate intake was identical within both diets, these findings are probably related to the differences in dietary fat and/or its energy content. Our findings are consistent with a preliminary report in monozygotic twins, which showed, in clamped energy balance conditions (i.e. standardized overfeeding or negative energy balance for 100 days by food restriction), that ghrelin concentrations tend to decrease and leptin to increase in a condition of energy surfeit (i.e. HF diet), whereas the opposite was observed in a state of energy shortage (i.e. LF diet) (34). Several studies have demonstrated that glucose is essential in modulating leptin levels (22). In addition, data on rat adipocytes suggest that insulin-mediated glucose metabolism, and not insulin per se, is critical in increasing leptin secretion (35). The current findings, however, in contrast to previous studies (23, 36), suggest that dietary fat affects leptin concentrations. Differences in study protocol and study population are probably responsible for the dissimilar results. Information on the effect of macronutrients on ghrelin levels is limited. Our results are consistent with those of Lee et al. (37), who showed ghrelin plasma levels to be significantly lower in rats fed HF diet than in control rats. However, due to the dietary protocol with different percentages of carbohydrates within the HF and LF diets, the respective role of these nutrients in regulating ghrelin secretion could not be determined. In healthy human subjects, however, recent evidence suggests (27) that an acute lipid load results in a significant decrease in ghrelin levels.
    The effect of increased lipid intake on hormonal responses during aerobic exercise in endurance-trained men
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  19. #19
    BD7
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMT staff View Post


    The bottom-line is that fasting has shown to increase GH secretion, so it is best to do this while using the peptides, I have used them more times than i can remember. In order to get the best results, or to ensure that you will get the best results, it only makes sense to fast.

    Im not saying your wrong at all, I'm just saying its better to be safe than sorry.
    yes i agree. in regards to peptide timing, fasting is best.. and that is what we're talking about anyway. i just got caught up on the fact that I read above not to eat carbs or fat around the peptide pin which made me question the insulin response to fat. i know from first hand knowledge and testing that glucose does not elevate when i eat fat (like a teaspoon of olive oil), but even BCAA's, protein and of course any carbs will have an immediate glucose response followed by a insulin response which is what we are trying to avoid. thanks very much for the time and links. very interesting!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD7 View Post
    yes i agree. in regards to peptide timing, fasting is best.. and that is what we're talking about anyway. i just got caught up on the fact that I read above not to eat carbs or fat around the peptide pin which made me question the insulin response to fat. i know from first hand knowledge and testing that glucose does not elevate when i eat fat (like a teaspoon of olive oil), but even BCAA's, protein and of course any carbs will have an immediate glucose response followed by a insulin response which is what we are trying to avoid. thanks very much for the time and links. very interesting!!
    I actually realized that when you pointed it out !!!

    Thank You
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  21. #21
    Novice IZZOT's Avatar
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    Great conversation!

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