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  1. #1
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    E2 control without AI'S
    With no Aromatase inhibitor (AI) I get E2 levels. Of 47 to high for me Ai's crash my e2 even at .5mg per week. Someone else out there has got to be a over responder what do you use. DIM ZINC CHYRSIN. Any suggestions. I need to hit about 30 for my optimal level.

  2. #2
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    What's your dosage of TRT/type?

  3. #3
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    120mg test e divided into 3/wk. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) dropped down to 150ius EOD WAS 250ius to see if that was aromatizing to much.

  4. #4
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    From some searching I'm going to give zinc a shot since its a natural aromatase inhibitor. Arimidex is just to strong and has way to many sides for me.

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    Rider.... I havn't "concluded" research yet on your idea/theory regarding zinc being an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), but so far, everything I HAVE come across, shows the impact that Zinc DOES have on increasing TEST levels.... Increase in TEST, in ANY form is going to lead to aromatization...? I'm not 100% sure that you are on the right track with your thoughts of using Zinc as an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). NOT saying either of us are 100% on point... This needs some more input/feedback... Guys.... And Tony???
    Last edited by CHIP WADOWSKI; 01-02-2011 at 11:58 PM.

  6. #6
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    Agreed I'm also doing more research as all I've found is testomonials on other forums. I'm reading the testosterone syndrome by Dr. Shippen and he states that 50mg 1-2 times daily is his first coarse of action before any drugs and most benefit. He also states that you may need to add some more copper if you take any bigger doses than that. I'm just looking for something weaker than Arimidex. I appreciate any info that you may come across Chip I'll share the same.

  7. #7
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    Well can't really find any technical data on the zinc. I tried another low dose of arimidex yesterday after taking a wk off and again I it made me feel like shit. So my ? is what else could I use. It seems like my body dosent like me keeping it from aromatizing test. Can I use a serm like nolvadex with my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) to block the estrogen from fucking up my dick and to keep from any gyno. My main side from the E2 is loss of sexual function. I've had my E2 on a roller coaster for awhile now and I'm feeling like shit so any thoughts would be great.

  8. #8
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    This is a artical on natural AI's that might put you on the right track.Hope this helps

    Aromatase Inhibitors benefit and side effects, toxicity, caution, danger, review of studies by Ray Sahelian, M.D. Alternatives to aromatase inhibitors, supplements and herbal extracts
    Aromatase, an enzyme of the cytochrome P450 family, is a very important pharmacological target, particularly for the treatment of breast cancer.
    In premenopausal women ovaries are the major sites of estrogen production, while in postmenopausal women estrogen is produced by aromatization of ovarian and adrenal androgens in extragonadal sites, mostly in adipose tissue. Aromatase is a cytochrome P450 hemoprotein-containing enzyme complex that catalyzes the rate-limiting step in the conversion of androstenedione and testosterone to estrone and estradiol (E2). Aromatase inhibitors (AIs) have been developed primarily for use in either natural or surgical postmenopausal patients. In premenopausal women, the ovary can overcome the estrogen blockade by reflex increments of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), so AIs must be combined with a gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist to prevent the reflex LH and FSH increments.

    Natural aromatase inhibitors, how effective are they?
    Natural aromatase inhibitors include flavones, flavanones, resveratrol , oleuropein and others. Some of these can be purchased online such as chrysin, genistein, and quercetin.

    I have question regarding natural aromatase inhibitors (natural supplements). Have there been reliable human studies regarding natural aromatase inhibitors? Are there natural alternatives to Tamoxifen and Lupron?
    Plants have substances that have potential aromatase inhibiting activity. Some of these include flavonoids, for instance quercetin, chrysin, naringenin, apigenin, and Genistein. Not enough human research is available to determine which of the flavonoids or other substances found in plants are the most effective aromatase inhibitors. As a general rule, it is preferable to ingest a variety of flavonoids rather than focusing on only one or two although it is possible that in the treatment of a particular medical condition a specific natural aromatase inhibitor may be more effective.

    Are natural aromatase inhibitors useful in breast cancer prevention or post breast cancer treatment?
    This is a good question. I suspect that certain natural substances could potentially be helpful in reducing the incidence of breast cancer or as a post breast cancer surgery treatment, but I have not seen specific human studies that have tested natural aromatase inhibiting supplements.

    Do you have aromatase inhibitors such as quercetin, chrysin, naringenin, apigenin, and genistein? Also what foods act as aromatase inhibitors to stop estrogen for women?
    See the link above for chrysin. Quercetin and genistein are sold as supplements. As to foods, it is difficult to say since most foods have quite a number of different compounds and substances in them and it would be difficult to pinpoint a particular food as having specific aromatase inhibiting activity.

    Among all natural products manufactured, have you got any "anti aromatase" product. You know better than me that sometimes testosterone or DHEA might be converted into estrogens.

    Aromatase inhibitor drugs
    The aromatase enzyme catalyses the last step in estrogen biosynthesis. There are two classes of third-generation aromatase inhibitors: irreversible steroidal inhibitors (e.g. exemestane) and reversible non-steroidal inhibitors (e.g. anastrozole, letrozole). All three agents have been found to be equivalent or superior to megestrol acetate as second-line therapy for metastatic breast cancer.
    Aromatase inhibitors include anastrozole, made by AstraZeneca Plc under the brand name Arimidex, and exemestane, made by Pfizer Inc. under the brand name Aromasin.

    Aromatase inhibitor drugs and bone loss
    Breast and prostate cancer treatment can lead to bone loss and increase the risk for osteoporosis and fractures. Fred Saad, M.D., Université de Montréal's Faculty of Medicine and the Centre Hospitalier de l'Université de Montréal (CHUM), Montreal, Quebec, and colleagues evaluated data from more than 3,500 breast and prostate cancer studies. They found that breast cancer patients treated with aromatase inhibitors were more likely to have bone loss and fractures compared with patients who didn't receive the drug therapy. Similarly, men who received androgen deprivation therapy to treat their prostate cancer had an increased risk of bone disorders. Although the numbers vary from one study to the next (from 5%-45%), an elevated risk is consistently observed. Ways to combat the bone loss, such as exercise, and vitamin D intake may be beneficial.

    Aromatase Inhibitors and Breast Cancer
    The widespread use of tamoxifen has led to improvements in survival for postmenopausal women with early-stage hormone receptor-positive breast cancer; however, approximately 30% of patients die despite receiving tamoxifen as adjuvant treatment. In addition, concerns exist regarding tamoxifen -associated side effects, including endometrial cancer and thromboembolic disease. The development of the third-generation aromatase inhibitors (AIs; anastrozole, exemestane, and letrozole) therefore represents a potential alternative to tamoxifen.

    Arnomatase inhibitors as breast cancer drugs
    Women with breast cancer who switch from tamoxifen to a newer class of drugs called aromatase inhibitors live longer. Dr. Lauren Cassell of Lenox Hill Hospital in New York said the research is changing how doctors treat breast cancer patients after their tumors are surgically removed. "If they have been on tamoxifen we are switching them to an aromatase inhibitor. If they are newly diagnosed we are using an aromatase inhibitor instead of tamoxifen," she said in a statement. But tamoxifen remains the main option for younger women with breast cancer. "Aromatase inhibitors are only for women who are post-menopausal," Dr. Lauren Cassell said. Dr. Francesco Boccardo of the National Cancer Research Institute and the University of Genoa in Italy and colleagues looked at two studies of 828 women. About half the women got tamoxifen for five years, as was once recommended, and half got tamoxifen at first and then switched to an aromatase inhibitor after two or three years. The women who switched were much less likely to die of breast cancer or of anything else, Dr. Francesco Boccardo reported.

    Endometriosis
    Aromatase inhibitors may be helpful in treating endometriosis.

    Aromatase Inhibitors and estrogen cream
    By increasing levels of estrogen in the body, use of vaginal estrogen products may counter the effects of aromatase inhibitors and thereby raise the risk of breast cancer recurrence. Roughly a fifth of women who use aromatase inhibitors have vaginitis resulting from a lack of estrogen. While estrogen replacement therapy could, in theory, help aromatase inhibitor users with this condition, it is not recommended due to its ability to raise levels of estrogen in the body. Therefore, vaginal estradiol products are often used. However, there is a potential of significant increase in serum estradiol levels after starting vaginal estradiol therapy.

    Heart disease risk
    Postmenopausal women with early breast cancer who take aromatase inhibitors are more likely to develop heart disease than those who take the old standby tamoxifen, San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium, San Antonio, Dec. 8-12, 2010.Eitan Amir, MD, senior fellow, oncology and hematology, Princess Margaret Hospital, Toronto.Aman Buzdar, MD, department of breast medical oncology, University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston.

    Precocious puberty
    Aromatase inhibitors have been used in the treatment of selective forms of precocious puberty since the mid-1980s. The primary aim of therapy is attenuation of the effects of estrogen on growth, skeletal maturation, and secondary sexual development. The first-generation agent, testolactone, has been demonstrated to be tolerable and effective in the treatment of familial male precocious puberty, while mixed results with testolactone have been achieved in girls with McCune-Albright syndrome.

    Aromatase inhibitor side effect of thinning bones
    The bones of breast cancer patients age prematurely as a result of chemotherapy and aromatase inhibitor therapy. Tamoxifen drug is bone-sparing while aromatase inhibitors cause bone loss." Examples of aromatase inhibitors include anastrozole, sold as Arimidex, and exemestane sold as Aromasin.

    Toxicity, caution, danger, adverse events
    The aromatase inhibitors are increasingly used as adjuvant therapy in postmenopausal women with hormone receptor positive breast cancer. The symptomatic side effects of aromatase inhibitors include: hot flashes, arthralgias, vaginal dryness and dyspareunia. The mechanism of arthralgias is uncertain and anti-inflammatory agents are seldom effective. Patients who experience severe musculoskeletal discomfort may necessitate switching to another endocrine agent such as tamoxifen. Physicians should be aware of 'silent' side effects. Screening for bone loss and hypercholesterolemia is critical and patients should be treated accordingly.

    Aromatase Inhibitors Side Effect of mood changes
    Aromatase inhibitors and bipolar mood disorder: a case report.
    Bipolar Disord. 2006 Oct;8(5 Pt 1):516-8. Goodwin GM. University Department of Psychiatry, Warneford Hospital, Headington, Oxford, UK.
    The aromatase inhibitor letrozole produced irritable mood elevation followed by depression in a woman with a history of postpartum depression. A 60-year-old Caucasian woman who had a severe depressive episode after the birth of her only child, 32 years earlier, was treated successively with anastrozole and letrozole following a mastectomy, radiotherapy and chemotherapy. The patient was prescribed anastrozole for about 6 weeks. During this time she experienced labile mood, increased activity, tremulousness and difficulty sleeping. These symptoms disappeared after stopping the anastrozole. On letrozole, she developed an acute irritable activated mood elevation, which then subsided into a prolonged major depression after withdrawal of letrozole. These effects occurred during co-prescription of amitriptyline at a low dose for urinary frequency. The present case suggests caution may be warranted when employing aromatase inhibitors, especially in women with a past history of postpartum affective disorder or bipolar disorder. As with postpartum mania, the primary mechanism of the effect may be acute reduction in circulating estrogen levels.

    Aromatase inhibitor side effects of heart disease
    The heart disease risk associated with adjuvant aromatase inhibitor treatment is increased compared with tamoxifen therapy in postmenopausal women with early breast cancer. Aromatase inhibitors are superior to tamoxifen in the setting of metastatic breast cancer, but increased cardiac events are associated with their use. Cancer 2008;112:260-267.

    Aromatase inhibitor questions
    Q. I was looking at purchasing quercetin supplement. I’ve read that quercetin is one of the best flavones and aromatase inhibitors, however you don’t mention that it’s an aromatase inhibitor on your webpage. Is quercetin also an aromatase inhibitor? Is quercetin safe for women? Which supplements can also be considered aromatase inhibitors?
    A. Plants have substances such as flavonoids that influence or inhibit the aromatase enzyme. There are countless substances in plants that inhibit aromatase, not just quercetin. Some of these include chrysin, naringenin, apigenin, and genistein. Not enough research is available to determine which of the flavonoids or other substances found in plants is the most effective aromatase inhibitor. As a general rule, it is preferable to ingest a variety of flavonoids rather than focusing on only one or two.

    Q. I am purchasing chamomile, Olive-Leaf-Extract, and quercetin. I think these are aromatase inhibitors and I do want suppress decrease my estrogen levels because I have endometriosis, however, I’m wondering if taking one of each 5 days a week considered “too much”?
    A. We can't make that decision for you. Please discuss with your personal health care consultant. What may be too little for one person may be too much for another and we have no way of knowing your full medical history, lab studies, and physical exam results.

    I would like to thank you for providing such an extremely informative website. It has been very helpful for me in treating health issues naturally. I was diagnosed several months ago with low testosterone and slightly high estrogen. I'm on a quest to increase testosterone and DHT levels in my body, and reduce estrogen levels. Besides my daily liquid basic multivitamin, I am taking 900 mg of gamma oryzanol daily to boost testosterone levels, and this does help. I was wondering if there are any natural supplements that will inhibit aromatase without inhibiting 5 alpha reductase also. I know mushrooms can inhibit aromatase, but i've read that mushrooms also inhibit dht also. Can I inhibit aromatase without lowering DHT? Thank you for your help with this matter.
    There are several herbs that have an influence on these enzymes, but they are not as specific as pharmaceutical medications. Rather than focusing to such detail on which enzymes or chemicals in the body to alter, I prefer to focus on the overall health of the body and treat overt signs and symptoms rather than treat laboratory numbers from blood studies.

    Does anyone know of a topical herbal hair product for menopausal female with hair loss and high levels of serum DHT? If not, any leads on what herbs or otherwise one might use to make something topical? Any research or anecdotal evidence to support? Also, do you think long acting T3 vs. T4 supplementation works the same on the conversion of testosterone to DHT?
    I am not aware of a natural herbal product used topically that has been proven to work for hair loss although there are some companies working on such products and there may be one soon. I have not seen any research on the difference between long acting T3 versus T4 in terms of influence on the conversion of testosterone to DHT.

  9. #9
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    Why not try the liquid anti e's... Like aromasin.... Or try some of the it OTC's like formestane transdermal.... Seems like slot of people like it....

  10. #10
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    Great article but I'm wondering if I would benefit more from allowing my body to produce the estrogen and just block its negative sides in the tissues. After all when my estrogen is higher I feel better mentally and my results inthe gym are way better. I just can't get a hard on and I get flare ups which are both unacceptable. I know clomid is bad for long term. Tamox is better are there any other seems I don't know about.

  11. #11
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    Well if you just wanted to block E from the breast to stop gyno then a serm is what your looking for.
    What exactly are the sides that your trying to avoid via anti-E?

  12. #12
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    Flare ups in nips and loss of sexual function. It seems I need the estrogen mentally and for some well-being but it destroys my libido. Would a serm block the negatives of libido loss. Clomid use to give me constant wet dreams and sexual boosts when I did cycles and post cycle therapy (pct). But I don't want to do clomid long term.

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    well nolva would be a better choice if gyno is the problem.Nolvadex will block estrogen from getting to the breast tissue but wil do nothing as far as droping E2 levels.
    I believe your body was just sensitive to the anti-e and really tanking your estrogen and causing the libido issues.Low estrogen can cause ED as well.

  14. #14
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    Yes I believe that was the issue. We also need to aromatize some T to E for normal brain function. That's why I'm seeking an alternative. I'd try another Aromatase inhibitor (AI) but all others are even stronger than Adex. It also trashes my lipid profile. Any suggestions.

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    Liquid Aromatase inhibitor (AI) you can take tiny dose's to you figure out what's best for you

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris31 View Post
    Liquid Aromatase inhibitor (AI) you can take tiny dose's to you figure out what's best for you
    its a good thought but dosing is no precise and at that small a dose you need to be right on.

    And not your dosing the actual emulsifier and how much of the compound is in each ml can vary.

  17. #17
    Junior Bodybuilder railrider's Avatar
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    I've got some compounded now. I took a week off and my last dose was .05mg and it gave me the brain fog and aches. My body literally hates arimidex.

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    I would try formestane or aromasin

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    Hi everyone

    Could someone please list symptoms I can look for as signs of having E that is too low. I have a blood test coming up in a few weeks, but I would like to know now on which symptoms I should be vigilant about. Many problems with low E are long term stuff, like heart problems, I mean more short term PHYSICALLY based symtoms.

    Like several posters have complained about fatigue. Now, I have great workouts MOST of the time, I got a bummer now and then, and if I don't have it, I just do what I can. BUt, my god, I can sleep 12 -15 hours NO PROBLEM....never had that before...I was usually a 6 hour guy. Loved 8 but got by on 5 or 6 just fine.

    THanks for ANY info at all.....could be I just getting old.......

  20. #20
    Pro Bodybuilder CHIP WADOWSKI's Avatar
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    Side effects to look for with crashed estrogen will be moderate to SEVERE night sweats. As in literally soaking your pillow case and sheets all the way through. Blurred vision. Mood swings (very edgy and irritable). Aching to painful joints. Low to NO libido AT ALL.

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    Transdermal most say are better .. I only know of cel formestane and formastazola from mrsupps are the only transdermal I know of
    Hope I'm aloud to post this since I can't send pm's

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    Allowed

  23. #23
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    rail, i would try Aromasin. Adex and Letro are both too strong for me, plus they fuck with my lipids.

    To me Aromasin is the perfect AI.

  24. #24
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    Thanks guys I ordered some cel. Formestane to give it a shot. Not sure how it will work for me. Hopefully u absorb it better than I did test gel. If not I'll give aromasin a shot. Adex destroys my lipids also.

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    Try the tops off your feet after a hot shower

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