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(Forum for members to post their current cycles and to keep us updated as to their results thus far. Also feel free to post your past cycles and their respective results.)
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  1. #1
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Default Irentat's Joint Repair and Rebuilding Cycle
    Hey all,

    The intent of this posting is to help others realize what can be accomplished with available hormones, if used in a non-standard way.

    Please ask all the questions you want and I will see if I can answer.

    Starting Stats
    Age: 42
    Height: 5' 9"
    Weight: 178
    BF: 15%
    Been lifting off and on since I was 16, but mostly off as of late.

    Cycle:
    Began my AAS cycle March 27th 2010
    Began "in the joint" intra-articular (IA) injections of HGH August 2008 through doctors. Total 150 IU per ankle at this point. Other IA injections during this time have included: Platelet Rich Plasma, Testostrone Suspension.

    5 IU HGH injected IA E3D in ankles. Alternate between left and right ankle.
    200mg EW Test
    350mg EW Deca began May 13th
    (using Chip for my Test and Deca)

    Length of cycle: unknown at this point. Expect to go minimum 12 weeks on AAS but probably more on HGH.

    Training: heavy resistance to focus on ligament/tendon compared to muscle building. Cardio with impact will follow sometime soon.

    Goals:
    Consistent pain level 3 in 6 months. (see scale below)
    Consistent pain level 2 in 12 months.


    Results from March to mid-May:
    As of May 21st 2010 pain level has decreased significantly. Pain is more predictable and more easily managed. Pain level a consistent 4 (see scale below). However, the real change occurred 1 week after initiating deca. This confirms that a good portion of my pain is ligament related. Cartilage takes months to rebuild although cartilage degeneration and joint pain go hand-in-hand

    Background:
    Known ankle cartilage thickness August 08: left none, right 1/4mm or less in the worst areas. Both ankles had necrotic (dead) bone and cysts.
    Known ankle cartilage thickness July 09: left 1mm, right 1/2mm again the worst areas. Cysts were less prevalent but still there.

    I could literally could have started this thread back in August of 08 after my surgery but this is my first time utilizing AAS to speed the process. At the age of 40, both ankles had significant bone spurs, subchondral cysts and necrotic bone (meaning dead). The left ankle was bone on bone and the right had less than a 1/4 mm cartilage left. Normal ankle cartilage thickness is about 4 mm. These situations always call for joint replacement or fusion when they are this bad. A standard doctor's procedure does not look at recovery from this extreme of a condition. Many years of research on my part has gone into what will work and will attempt to explain what I did to finally get to my first AAS cycle.

    As a kid, I was extremely athletic and even did collegiate level track but I was pretty prone to sprains but never thought about why. Eventually, in my late 20's, it caught up to me and I went into a doc. They took x-rays and found bone spurs. Well, a surgery later to remove spurs, no difference. Yeah, no one looked at the loose ligaments or to determine an underlying condition!

    About 7 years ago, I was diagnosed with Hemochromatosis. This is a genetic mutation which causes the body to retain iron. One of the side effects is arthritis or total joint degeneration including cartilage. Ok, one clue uncovered and easy to solve. I am now a fantastic blood donor for the rest of my life.

    Frustrated with common doctors and their statements of "you cannot rebuild cartilage", I researched and found Dr. Dunn in FL who injects HGH directly into joints to rebuild cartilage. After waiting 8 months, I got into see him and I had a surgery to scrape away necrotic (dead) bone from my left ankle, a series of HGH injections and being in a brace for 7 months. The results have been phenomenal as I will NEVER need a joint replacement.

    August 2008
    Pain level before surgery on left ankle:
    9-9.5 left.
    8 right.
    Have not been able to run, jog, stand on tip toes, walk more than 1/2 mile etc. because of pain for approximately 10 years.

    Since Fall 2009 pain levels:
    Average pain levels on both ankles: 5-6 depending upon activity level and day (adjusted for no anti-inflammatories). Not very often would see a 7 after long stints standing or long airport walking. Left ankle is slightly better than right.

    Pain Level References
    1 = No pain running or walking no matter what the distance and stress levels.
    2 = No pain walking. Only pain with running long distances or high impact sports.
    3 = No pain walking and no hesitancy. Running possible short distances with pain being felt.
    4 = Perception of pain with every step but does not affect gait. Barely any perceptible hesitancy in my walk.
    Running pain = 6 possible for more than 50 yds.
    5 = Walking with slightest limp because of pain. A slight hesitancy in walk. No issues with daily activities.
    Running pain =7 but prevalent pain for 50 yds.
    6 = Prevalent limp because of pain but daily activities are possible. Hesitancy in how I walk.
    Running pain = 8; less than 50 yds with severe pain.
    7 = Pain causes change in activities I must accomplish daily (airport walking is much slower, no standing for long periods)
    8 = Walking is minimal because of excessive pain. I Cannot walk more than 100 yards before extreme pain. Ex: airport walking is out of the question.
    9 = Pain causes me to stop daily activities essential to living (going to store, etc.).
    10 = Cannot walk because of pain.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Irentat; 08-10-2010 at 03:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Still acting 1/2 my age Epic Ed's Avatar
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    Interesting post. I've never heard of intra-articular injections of HGH, but it makes sense. Good to hear that it has worked well for you. You've made remarkable progress so far.

    As you mentioned in the other thread, traditional medicine practice is often way behind the curve for providing effective treatments for many disorders and I'm finding joint therapy to be among the most stunted. There is literally ZERO research on the effects of deca and relief of joint pain. All we have to go on is anecdotal evidence. While that's not my preferred source of info, there is a large body of work out there with story after story from people who have experienced some degree of pain relief from being on deca. That pool of evidence is just too large to totally ignore simply because the substance in question is an AAS. The medical research field needs to get their collective heads out of their asses and check this stuff out so we have some empirical data to use going forward.

    Best of luck with your continued recovery.

  3. #3
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Ed,

    Regarding Deca research, there is some out there and here is the best one I found:

    http://www.flexcellint.com/documents/TT/TT2.pdf Bottom line: you need to work those joints when on deca for best results. I will concur with my own ongoing regimen. It seems, per the study, that deca restructures tendon/ligament as compared to those who say it is joint lubrication.

    To back up your "stunted" statement, doctors and research cannot tell me where joint pain comes from: ligaments or cartilage. However, ligaments are a major source of pain from my perspective but I can also say that reduced cartilage will impact pain levels. They are all interconnected. Joints are a complexity that not many have figured out.
    Last edited by Irentat; 05-29-2010 at 08:58 AM.

  4. #4
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Day 63 of AAS and consistent IA GH shots into the ankle.

    No gyno felt and water retention is minimal. My diet is not perfect but do focus on more vegetables and protein. I am also limiting my intake as I have gone from 178 to 196 lb since starting and feel that is enough. Hey, I do look better!

    After 1/2 of my adult life lived in ankle pain, I am cautious about how I feel. However, this is the longest period of low pain I have had in years. I document my pain level every day and see that the cycles are less extreme but are still there. Just a week ago, I had the best day in years but the next day, the ankles felt worse. Thankfully they did recover and again the pain levels fell.

    Other joints are also feeling the effects. I had some hip and knee pain that has not bothered me at all since starting Deca 2 weeks ago.

    I have incorporated cardio through biking along with some short jogs...like 100M or so. Unfortunately, a bad glute injection has hindered my running. However, based on the article in the post prior, I will be putting more impact stress on the joints to illicit greater rebuilding.

    Here is a bit more (but not all) of my supplements with my focus on joint health:

    Vitamin C: 3-5K mg daily Ascorbic acid is important in collagen repair.
    Vitamin E: 800 mg daily
    Vitamin D: 3-5K IU daily
    Mutivitamin
    ALA: 500 mg daily

    Here is an interesting article Dr. Dunn published on GH and cartilage growth: http://www.med.miami.edu/mnbws/documents/06Dunn.pdf Although academic, the discussion gets to the point of indicating that GH will in fact regrow cartilage.

    Here is Dr. Dunn's original patent on cartilage regrowth: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...ge+AND+IN/dunn If you do the math, he is indicating injections at levels higher than anyone talks about and I can confirm that he does inject in excess of 45 IU of GH when he does knees. Note though that he likes to do injections one week apart. I can confirm by personal experience that if you stay off of the joint, this is a fantastic way to rebuild cartilage fast. This time, I have decided to take a different route and do less more often while still living my life. We will see if I am successful.

    At this point, I estimate it will take 500+ IU's per joint and over a year to rebuild cartilage to the normal levels (3-4MM).
    Last edited by Irentat; 05-29-2010 at 09:00 AM.

  5. #5
    Still acting 1/2 my age Epic Ed's Avatar
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    So are you having the doc do your intra-articular injections? If so, how many trips to the doc are you making each week? If not, you are one bad-assed dude for self administering the in-joint injections.

  6. #6
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epic Ed View Post
    So are you having the doc do your intra-articular injections? If so, how many trips to the doc are you making each week? If not, you are one bad-assed dude for self administering the in-joint injections.
    YouTube - Bad Mother Fucker wallet from Pulp Fiction

  7. #7
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Day 70

    The pain levels are being maintained with no "bad days" in the mix as was common before starting Deca. There seems to be a lot of "no limping" days where I can almost forget about my ankles for once. Cardio has been incorportated but a hamstring injury has slowed me down. However, I did a short run where I ran faster than I have in a decade. Since I cannot run on my toes yet, I have a long way to go still.

    Joint injections are going well but find variances in after-injection pain levels. Some injections are pretty painless a few hours later and some bring my pain level up to 6 or so before taking about 36 hours to drop down to the level of my other ankle.

    As part of my protocol, I have included GH peptides for an overall increase in collagen building. I need to correct my dosing since I have been feeling old pains since starting it a few weeks back. Others have indicated that old and existing pains are more prevalent while starting these amino acid chains. Example: I took for 5 days straight and then was out of town so took a break. During the time off, my ankles felt the best they had since starting this procedure. Getting back home, I started back up on peptides and again my ankles felt a bit more sore. I did research my intake and found I was at times giving myself upwards of 10 IU a day equivalently GH. I am not capable of that level as of yet.

    On the AAS I have gain 20 lb and could gain more but have severely cut back caloric intake. I don't want to weigh any more than 200! Regarding Estrogen, I feel fine as long as I stay away from excessive carbs. moodiness and bloat occur if I don't. Other than this, slight hair loss is noticed by more hairs in the sink and my libido is stable at the AAS levels indicated. To control estrogen or counter the effects of elevated estrogen, I am taking the following:

    Zinc
    Magnesium
    B-6
    CLA
    Arimidex - only if very bad sides appear

    All supplements:

    5 IU HGH injected IA E3D in ankles
    200mg EW Test Cyp
    350mg EW Deca
    GH inducing peptides
    Vitamin C: 3-5 grams daily Ascorbic acid is important in collagen repair.
    Vitamin E: 800 mg daily
    Vitamin D: 3-5K IU daily
    Mutivitamin
    ALA: 500 mg daily
    Zinc: 100 mg daily
    Magnesium 500 mg daily
    B-6: 100 mg daily
    CLA: 4 grams daily
    Arimidex - only if very bad sides appear

    Any opinions on supps and/or dosages and your results are appreciated.
    Last edited by Irentat; 06-07-2010 at 09:34 PM.

  8. #8
    Still acting 1/2 my age Epic Ed's Avatar
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    Nice to hear. It's weird how deca effects people differently. I initially was running a 1:1 ratio of deca to test and my dick was worthless for anything but taking a piss. I doubled my test going with a 1:2 deca/test ratio and I'm doing fine. The pain in my knees is significantly diminished, as well. Thanks for the updates. I'm following your post closely so please keep us informed about your progress.

  9. #9
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Bit of an update on some alternative procedures I am doing with GH as a specific trauma healer.

    I have always had my inner front ankle ligament be more sore than any others connecting my ankle joint (this is the ligament that connects the Talus with the Fibula). This is true for both ankles. What I did was inject that specific ligament sheath with 20 mg of Deca on my left and 1 IU of GH on the right. After 1 week, no change on the Deca ankle ligament however there was improvement on the GH ankle ligament. I reinjected 2 IU into the same ligament and again in the last few days seen further improvement. This seems to confirm that GH is much better as a specific area healer as I have already confirmed by cartilage regrowth.

    I am currently using GH directly in my hamstring strain that has been nagging me for 3 weeks. Futher information on this will be forthcoming.

    Overall: Still only good days of pain levels 4.5 to 4 and mostly being 4. I will certainly be cautious about documenting going below this as that mean my pain should be gone when I walk. Ther is minimal pain but I feel that there is something there. My gait has improved as I gain confidence with walking faster and stride length increases knowing I won't feel pain.

    Other oddities:
    I had a feeling of increased height over the last few weeks. I have put it to improved posture from the good back workouts I have been able to accomplish. However, I went in for a physical and found I am 5' 10" instead of 5' 9". I know that GH and steroids at my age cannot impact my height but I theorize that better posture and increased bone density may have an overall impact. Thoughts?

    Eyesight has improved. Before my consistent GH injections, I was at the "I need reading glasses" stage as most people get by 42. With consistent GH injections, eyes have been better. I have also heard this on other boards.

    Needles are finding it more difficult to penetrate the skin. Huge difference in how resistant my skin has become to injection needles. Needles now must be jiggled or spun to penetrate.
    Last edited by Irentat; 06-11-2010 at 06:42 PM.

  10. #10
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Day 81.

    Small update. Weight 199, BF approx 12%-14% (started at 15-16%). Strength gains have leveled off but also have not pushed max weights for a few weeks to fully recover from hamstring and back muscle issues haunting me for months or years in regard to back. Overall, all joints and muscle pains are going away. Went in for physical and will post results of blood work when they come in.

    Ankle joint pain level a consistent 4. 4 = Perception of pain with every step but does not affect gait. Barely any perceptible hesitancy in my walk. Running pain = 6 but possible for more than 50 yds.

    Accidentally injected double my normal amount of Deca in one injection. Bad water retention occurred. I have found my limit at the 350 mg EW or lower level. My intentions were to never use estrogen blockers to allow an increase in test/Deca.

    Hamstring seems to have improved tremendously with direct GH injection into the muscle. I put about 4 IU in the area of pain 6 days ago and it took a few day but there was more improvement now than I have had since the problem started. Almost ready to go full running again but will give it another week to be absolutely sure.

    A real test of my status was my ability to walk through airports. This last trip was extremely favorable. Stride was very strong and fast with no concern of pain. Hopping on tip-toes is also not very painful. I could almost indicate a pain level of 3.5 at this point. Another upcoming test will be a show I will be attending. This requires 12+ hours of walking/standing and will be the best test yet of where I am in recovery.

    Another bad injection caused pain for a bit. I have decided to go 10 IU E5D thus utilizing a whole vial at once.
    Last edited by Irentat; 07-02-2010 at 10:11 AM.

  11. #11
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Day 89

    On the AAS side, weight is constant at 196-199 and limiting my caloric intake. I am giving credit to my increased confidence to the AAS since I have a different attitude now than before I started. I understand that test can impact mood in that way. Increased and consistent Arimidex intake of 1/2 mg ED has led to better control of my moodiness. Damn but that stuff is expensive and decreased estrogen does increase joint pain. Tough to find a happy medium.

    Supps as above with changes:

    Test 250 mg EW
    Deca 400 mg EW
    GH 10 IU E5D

    The BIG test of where I stand has occurred. I attended a water convention (fun eh?) and walked more miles that first day than I have in years. Things were fine until the end of the day when the ankles tightened up on me. The next day, ankles took a good hour to become pain free enough to stop limping. Unfortunately, this repeated itself all three days at the show. Any time I sat down or mornings, the ankles would tighten up until I started moving.

    Bottom line, I felt better than I have in the past. Recovery from the pain the day prior was quicker and ended with my being able to walk without a limp. My limp has been prevalent for many years and normally these shows would keep me from walking as much as I did.

    Getting home, I immediately got a 10IU IA injection of GH in my right ankle and a good nights sleep. This has benefited me greatly and will probably be completely back to pain level 4 by tomorrow.

    I wish I was totally pain free the whole time but this shows that I have a ways to go in recovery. My theory now rests more on the lack of cartilage has an impact on the ligaments and the pain radiates from the cartilage to the ligaments. Cartilage has no blood flow or nerve endings (confirmed by multiple sticks of a needle into them) but the ligament attachement area does. For me, constant pressure on the cartilage/bone will increase the pain that eventually radiates to the ligaments that keep the bone together and causes irritation. I will dig more into this.
    Last edited by Irentat; 07-12-2010 at 06:22 PM.

  12. #12
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Day 97 since starting AAS, day 35 since starting peptides.

    Update on the AAS side: I went and had my blood tested and the results show my liver is not stressed in the least from all of the gear/supplements. Unfortunately, my estrogen was 116. Chip Wadowski and I have agreed to agressively knock it down along with elimination of some water retention. I will have to say that I have been a bit more irritated on cycle.

    Lifts still strong with back issue pretty much gone and allowing myself to lift heavier. Still limiting my caloric intake to keep me at 196 currently and around 12-13% BF. No cardio has been done for weeks (who the hell wants to when it is 105+F outside!)

    On another note (don't consider it cardio since it is only 1/4 mile), I ran heel-toe to see how the ankles felt. They felt good once I had them warmed up but cannot run on balls of feet yet. What is interesting is that my hamstring is stressed by the small amount of running. Guess after years of never running, the hams just not used to it.

    I will be moving to also direct inject GH into the ligament sheaths that are giving me problems around the ankles. Specifically, right now, I have about 4 ligaments that give me the most issue. After 100IU injected into the right ankle, there have been improvements but I feel the pain mainly in the ligaments. It will be interesting to see the difference as it is still site specific use just now going to the exact area that is causing pain. This is a form of prolotherapy but not quite. After injection, the ligament is more sore but not enough to impact my walking.
    Last edited by Irentat; 07-12-2010 at 06:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    On the AAS side of things, all still good. 193-194lb and 12-13% BF. Since starting to take the Arimidex consistently over the last week, I have lost water weight. Further, I feel emotionally much better along with being MUCH tighter, harder and vascular. I can really tell I have stomach muscles now. Arimidex is my friend while on cycle from now on.

    On the joint rebuild side I found a study that I feel really completes the cartilage regeneration philosophy I am have been working with even before I started GH injections in the joint. Bottom line: the cartilage in the joint needs specific help in getting the building blocks before it can truly repair and this study provides precise information. I have already started implementing this protocol along with my ongoing GH injections. Because of this addition, I will be moving back to 5IU GH E3D.

    Needed:

    Dextrose and BW solution: available all day long via internet. The sugar is being used to help produce part of the cartilage.

    Ascorbic acid (vitamin C): easily made into injectable form.

    Collagen: I already take this exact product orally and matches perfectly the components of the study: Neocell Corporation - Natural Collagen Supplements - Store Locator

    Here is the study:
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/ar2114.pdf

    All supps:

    5 IU HGH injected IA E3D in ankles
    250mg EW Test Cyp
    400mg EW Deca
    GH inducing peptides
    Vitamin C: 3-5 grams daily Ascorbic acid is important in collagen repair.
    Vitamin E: 400 mg daily
    Vitamin D: 10-15K IU daily I was still on the low side even though I have supplemented for a year
    Mutivitamin
    ALA: 500 mg daily
    Zinc: 50 mg daily
    Magnesium 500 mg daily
    B-6: 100 mg daily
    CLA: 2 grams daily
    Arimidex - consistently now
    Last edited by Irentat; 07-06-2010 at 02:57 PM.

  14. #14
    Still acting 1/2 my age Epic Ed's Avatar
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    So you're creating your own concoction to inject to help with collagen synthesis? Interesting. I don't have time right now to read those studies, but I will. I'd like to know how you accomplish this and look forward to your updates.

    Dude -- we should just get together for lunch some time and chat since you live here in town. PM me your contact info if you'd like to chat.

  15. #15
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    AAS Update:
    No changes from when I reported. Still feeling better taking Arimidex however I have slightly puffy nipples now but they don't itch or hurt in any way.

    I have everything in place to begin PCT whenever I feel like it. I am thinking the 2nd week of August since I will be back from my trip by then and can take the time to make sure and be at home. This will be a good test of the pain level and what it will feel like off of Deca.

    Here is an abstract showing collagen synthesis result for some older women using Nandrolone:
    ScienceDirect - Metabolism : Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during therapy with anabolic steroid or female sex hormones

    What I found interesting is that increased collagen synthesis peaks and then lowers but stays elevated throughout the study. Seems to me that if I can cycle on and then off I would gain the benefit of increased collagen right from the start over and over...just a theory.

    Joint update:
    Walk without limping every day. Pain level is a constant 4 (see scale) or maybe 3.5 because my hesitancy in walking has pretty much gone away. I used to be very careful where I stepped but not much anymore. On the downside, this last week has been hampered by a bad ligament injection. Pretty much gave me pain for a week.

    Went in for an x-ray of both ankles today. It has been a year since having a chance to view cartilage thickness. To my surprise, I have gained significant thickness. I say surprised because my pain level has not dropped much in the prior year (until starting Deca). Thickness of the cartilage is normal or a bit below in a lot of places and in only a few areas is the thickness not very good. Average thickness of normal ankle cartilage is anywhere from 3mm to 4mm depending upon the location. My thinkness is 1mm to 4mm. Still a ways to go and so I won't be stopping the IA injections. Thankfully, I can correlate the thinnest cartilage to the area where I have the most pain in both ankles.

    Here are some yearly joint space comparisons with normal being 3-4mm throughout joint:

    August 08:
    Left: min 0, max 2mm
    right: min 1/4, max 2mm

    July 09:
    Left: min 1, max 3mm
    right: min 1/2, max 3mm

    July 10:
    Left: min 1+, (most areas over 2mm) max 4mm
    right: min 1+, (most areas over 2mm) max 4mm

    Actually, the results have brought more questions than answers. I am wondering why my cartilage thickness is recovering well but I still had plenty of pain up until I started Deca 2 months ago. My feeling is the Deca did nothing to increase cartilage so my pain has to be more ligament-based than cartilage based. Bone spurs are still extremely prevalent but am not sure if these are the cause of my pain I have. My bone spurs can rub against ligaments and do limit my flexibility. Yes they are that big!

    Here is my long term plan: Keep up IA injections and do additional prolotherapy to work on the ligaments. Then get an MRI done in 6 months. In the meantime, cycle off of Deca and see what the pain level is while off. Cycle back on Deca and see what a 2nd cycle can do for me. I will guarantee that my cycle off time will be substanially less than my cycle on time.

    When my cartilage gets to full thickness, evaluate whether surgery to remove bone spurs would be beneficial. I estimate full thickness can be had in probably another year or less.

    Upcoming test: Climbing a hill I have not been up in over a decade. If I can make it all the way to the top, it will be a significant milestone.
    Last edited by Irentat; 07-25-2010 at 08:07 AM.

  16. #16
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    Interesting read, you really go in depth
    Good luck with climbing that hill !!
    Last edited by Sizewize; 07-19-2010 at 01:43 AM.

  17. #17
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    AAS Update
    Regarding excess estrogen, Arimidex was not cutting it for the puffy nipples so I switched to Letro on the 16th and some Prami on the 19th. Letro is nasty stuff! I took over 1 mg for few days to knock the estrogen down and felt lethargic with a headache included. Along with the Letro, I have the Prami for possible progesterone. Been almost a week on both and the puffiness is going down. I will give it another week to really see how it goes but happy so far.

    current stats:
    Height: 5' 10" I have measured myself 3 different times including the doctor's office and have gained an inch. Doc says it is the muscle taking up the load.
    Weight: 195 lb cut down on my caloric intake to maintain this weight.
    BF: 12% estimated

    Here is an article I found on androgen receptors in bone: The Localization of Androgen Receptors in Human Bone -- Abu et al. 82 (10): 3493 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Since Deca binds better with androgen receptors compared to test in certain organs/parts of the body, this could explain why Deca has been used to reverse osteoperosis as bones may be more receptive to DHN as compared to DHT. Not sure on this one yet and researching...

    An interesting quote from the article: "Our results show for the first time the presence and distribution of androgen receptors in normal developing human and osteophytic bone in situ and further provide evidence for a direct action of androgens on bone and cartilage cells." So cartilage cells have AR's also. This might explain the benefit we all see while on Nandrolone. It may be that the collagen synthesis is by the strong binding of the Deca (DHN) to the AR.

    Joint Update
    After reviewing my own pain level scores, I believe I am now at 3.5 for my pain level. I am getting very close to my goal. However, I believe that the extremely large bone spurs will keep me from running on my toes, pain free. The bone spur issue along with an upcoming end to my current insurance is forcing me to do surgical debridement sometime soon. I will take a look at doing this in the coming 2 months. They say it takes 4-6 weeks to recover. I will look to cut that in 1/2.

    Left ankle had a strongly negative reaction to starting up injections into again last week. My focus for a long time was on the right ankle to get it feeling as good as my left. Now my right ankle is the good one and the left is the one I need to work on more.

    I went for a 1+ mile run today. Nice jogging pace with no major issues. Yes this is another milestone. I have not done this for over a decade so I am feeling good! During the jog, the left ankle (the bad one now) inside front ligament was irritated but not enough to stop me. Also, the bone spurs really showed themselves the next day with pain and a bit of bruising of soft tissue. Further, another hamstring irritation developed in another muscle group. Instead of shooting the GH in the joint as normally done, I did some intramuscular GH injections into the irritated ham muscles. It should help as it has in the past.
    Last edited by Irentat; 08-01-2010 at 04:06 PM.

  18. #18
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    AAS Update

    No more itchy nips. Only when I think about them do I feel "something". Left one going down a little but the right is not going down at all.

    Prami: 0.625mg ED now moving to EOD
    Letro: 0.25mg ED after an initial shock of 0.5mg up front. Even then, the lethargy was just too much! All I wanted to do was sleep.

    Joint Upate
    Went in to see a doc on doing a debridement and he scheduled a high-resolution MRI. This will be very interesting! He was careful in stating the surgery may or may not do all I am thinking but I said schedule it.

    I hope I can get this done within 2 months. If I can, I will cycle right through. I have heard of many people having faster surgery recoveries being on gear.
    Last edited by Irentat; 07-29-2010 at 07:02 PM.

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    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Quick update:

    Lifts getting heavier and heavier. Almost to the level of my heaviest lifts back when I was 22. If I wasn't so worried about injuries, I could probably already be there. Pretty much moved to working once per week on each major muscle.

    Weight is staying the same at 195 because I don't want it any higher but true muscle definition is starting to show up in the last week or so. I suppose everything I am doing plus some cardio is helping get rid of the underlying fat. It would be cool to try a real cutting cycle but I am staying with Deca for a bit.

    Prami is doing its thing and nips are feeling fine. Just waiting for the puffiness to go away. I had this puffy nip issue as a kid and the same nipple is the one I am having problems with now again 28 years later...along with acne. Getting some body acne but nothing major. Not going to worry about it now unless it does not subside. Any suggestions here?


    On the ankle front, GH injections into the left ankle still not feeling good. I think it needs to play catchup. Right ankle is feeling great now.

    Left ankle pain level: 4 4 = Perception of pain with every step but does not affect gait. Barely any perceptible hesitancy in my walk. Running pain = 6 possible for more than 50 yds.

    Right ankle pain level: 3.5 3 = No pain walking and no hesitancy. Running possible short distances with pain being felt. Can do all out sprints on toes. I know now that the bone spurs will keep me from doing sprints so have to scratch that part of it.

    My goal is pain level 3 for both ankles after 6 months. It has been 4 months since I started my cycle and 2-1/2 months with Deca. I will consider it a success if I can get to a level 3 on both while walking. I realize the reality of my bone spurs and running so that will have to wait until after surgery.

    I will update after I get the high-res MRI done in a week.
    Last edited by Irentat; 08-03-2010 at 05:25 PM.

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    Shit that I say --------> 1badmofo's Avatar
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    regarding the nip, I always felt like having a DHT in the mix seems to help, like proviron. Or, you could go with Anavar (var) or Primo which can also be good for the joints, but obviously not Winstrol (winny). By injecting into the joint do you still get the systemic effect(fat burning etc) from the HGH that you would get by doing regular subq injections?

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    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1badmofo View Post
    regarding the nip, I always felt like having a DHT in the mix seems to help, like proviron. Or, you could go with Anavar (var) or Primo which can also be good for the joints, but obviously not Winstrol (winny).

    By injecting into the joint do you still get the systemic effect(fat burning etc) from the HGH that you would get by doing regular subq injections?
    Thanks for the input. Anavar (var) is on the horizon someday and will be an option. I would think that test I take produces enough DHT but still learning and not sure what my next step is...if any. I suppose as long as I don't have lumps and irritation, I have estrogen/prolactin under control.

    Regarding GH, the body adsorbs the intra-articular GH as it does normally but the process is much slower. If I remember correctly, it takes about an hour for 1/2 of the GH to be adsorbed by the body. All normal benefits "should" be transferred to the whole body. I say this hesitantly because I don't have complete proof other than my own self. If I take 10 IU into one joint, I will feel the well known effects of excessive GH use in my other joints in the form of pain hence I know it is traveling to the other areas.

    Another thing to note though is the site-specific action of GH. Obviously the cartilage grows back so some of the GH was used to heal the area injected into. My guess is (and it is only a guess) that you don't get the FULL effect of rHGH when you use it in a site-specific manner compared to subq. Tests do show that subq is the quickest way into the blood stream. When rHGH is injected into the muscle, the full effect is blunted and the adsorption rate is slower. So, don't forget to use GH when you are sore in a certain muscle. It does help. I have proven that to myself many times.
    Last edited by Irentat; 08-02-2010 at 08:39 AM.

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    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Another update:
    192 lb now in the morning. If I take my Arimidex and am a bit dehydrated, I can see for the first time my "six-pack" barely showing.

    Not knowing how long I will be on cycle, I decided to start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) @ 250 IU 2X week. The first shot and the "boys" came right back. After the second, they were normal size, from what I can tell.

    Had to be on the road for a week drinking heavily and eating too many carbs...yes I have to entertain in my business. Came back and my weight was exactly the same as were my lifts and my cardio.

    Went in for the high-resolution MRI on the left ankle. Really no idea how to read these things but from what I can tell, I have good cartliage thickness in all but one area. The cysts I have are slowly going away compared to a year ago. Once cyst the size of a marble in the middle of my talus, (the bone that the tib/fib sit on) is growing back new bone and being filled in. Some bone underneath the cartilage is still looking pretty rough but the cartilage covering them eliminates rubbing. Overall, I can see where I need to go from here however my left ankle still does not like injections as it gets irritated any time I inject.

    Doctor will either be willing to do surgery to remove the spurs or I have to find another surgeon. Either way, I am maintaining GH injections into both ankles and still getting improvements. My right ankle is just doing fantastic. No more daily swelling occurs and I walk without even thinking of it anymore. The left is now the one needing help.

    A study on rodents came to the following conclusion:
    CONCLUSIONS--Androgens appear to protect cartilage from inflammation induced breakdown in male animals...and suggest that long term androgen replacement may help prevent joint damage and disability.
    So confirmation I am going down the right path.
    Last edited by Irentat; 08-11-2010 at 11:18 AM.

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    Shit that I say --------> 1badmofo's Avatar
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    I just went through and re-read your log. I found this post funny because that is my favorite movie and that scene is where my username originated from.

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    Shit that I say --------> 1badmofo's Avatar
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    I know you have done plenty of research. Do you think chondroitin/glucosamine/MSM would help at all with your joint issues? I dont see you taking it, so I'm guessing there is a reason. Just wondering what your opinion is on it's effectiveness. Also, at 42 do you see yourself ever really coming off? I know I'm probably just going to stay on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose of test especially so I can run deca indefinitely. Also, has your research found any studies that indicate stem cell could be used to rebuild cartilage? I really consider myself lucky to not have any significant joint issues besides this neck surgery which is a total game changer for me going forward. I appreciate your log because it's unique and valuable to anyone having similar issues. Also, what is your opinion on adequan for joints?
    Last edited by 1badmofo; 08-10-2010 at 08:18 PM.

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    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1badmofo View Post
    I know you have done plenty of research. Do you think chondroitin/glucosamine/MSM would help at all with your joint issues? I dont see you taking it, so I'm guessing there is a reason. Just wondering what your opinion is on it's effectiveness.[/
    Yes there is a reason: it does not work for me. I have tried different versions and quantities of ALL different OTC supplements with NO results. For true joint supplementation, the only option, I feel is direct injection. That is why I posted on the "Nutrient Solution" some months prior. It only makes sense. Why take pills and have it highly diluted in the blood stream and then "possibly" transfer across the synovial membrane to start to work? Why not just inject directly in. No one does these things because they are not as bad off as me and honestly, I am more persistent and open to ideas than most folks...hence why I take AAS even though I have no interest in bodybuilding (but I do like the body recomposition it gives ).

    Quote Originally Posted by 1badmofo View Post
    Also, at 42 do you see yourself ever really coming off? I know I'm probably just going to stay on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose of test especially so I can run deca indefinitely.
    I have no idea right now. I want to come off cycle but if I am not healed, the pain "might" come back. In the end, I have made a personal decision that if I permanently change my endocrine system by being on an extremely long cycle, it is an accepted risk. The benefits are too strong for me to ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1badmofo View Post
    Also, has your research found any studies that indicate stem cell could be used to rebuild cartilage?
    Hell yeah! A friend is doing this to rebuild her knee. But this tells me you did not read all of my links Dr. Dunn's research clearly shows that HGH rebuilds the cartilage by having the body generate its own stem cells. You just have to inject into the joint to get that benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1badmofo View Post
    I really consider myself lucky to not have any significant joint issues besides this neck surgery which is a total game changer for me going forward. I appreciate your log because it's unique and valuable to anyone having similar issues. Also, what is your opinion on adequan for joints?
    Thanks. I do appreciate it. Not only is it a reference for me to go back to, I do truly hope to help others with this. No more joint replacements, they are a bane to our society, especially to younger people.
    Last edited by Irentat; 08-11-2010 at 11:21 AM.

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