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  1. #1
    Pro Bodybuilder pineapple's Avatar
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    More PROTEIN doesnt mean MORE muscle
    Got this from another board.

    Dietary Carbohydrate Deprivation Increases 24-Hour Nitrogen Excretion without Affecting Postabsorptive Hepatic or Whole Body Protein Metabolism in Healthy Men


    Because insulin is an important regulator of protein metabolism, we hypothesized that physiological modulation of insulin secretion, by means of extreme variations in dietary carbohydrate content, affects postabsorptive protein metabolism. Therefore, we studied the effects of three isocaloric diets with identical protein content and low-carbohydrate/high-fat (2% and 83% of total energy, respectively), intermediate-carbohydrate/intermediate-fat (44% and 41% of total energy, respectively), and high-carbohydrate/low-fat (85% and 0% of total energy, respectively) content in six healthy men. Whole body protein metabolism was assessed by 24-h urinary nitrogen excretion, postabsorptive leucine kinetics, and fibrinogen and albumin synthesis by infusion of [1-13C]leucine and [1-13C]valine.

    The low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet resulted in lower absorptive and postabsorptive plasma insulin concentrations, and higher rates of nitrogen excretion compared with the other two diets: 15.3 ± 0.9 vs. 12.1 ± 1.1 (P = 0.03) and 10.8 ± 0.5 g/24 h (P = 0.005), respectively. Postabsorptive rates of appearance of leucine and of leucine oxidation were not different among the three diets. In addition, dietary carbohydrate content did not affect the synthesis rates of fibrinogen and albumin.

    In conclusion, eucaloric carbohydrate deprivation increases 24-h nitrogen loss but does not affect postabsorptive protein metabolism at the hepatic and whole body level. By deduction, dietary carbohydrate is required for an optimal regulation of absorptive, rather than postabsorptive, protein metabolism.

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    Stimulation of protein turnover by carbohydrate overfeeding in men

    S. Welle, D. E. Matthews, R. G. Campbell and K. S. Nair
    Endocrine-Metabolism Unit, Monroe Community Hospital, University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry 14603.

    The effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on protein metabolism was studied in 11 healthy men. Total urinary nitrogen output during 10 days of carbohydrate overfeeding (1,600 extra kcal/day) decreased 27% relative to nitrogen excretion during 10 days of weight maintenance, indicating protein accretion during over-feeding. However, postabsorptive nitrogen excretion did not change, which means that the positive nitrogen balance associated with overfeeding results from enhanced postprandial nitrogen retention. Overfeeding reduced postabsorptive glucose concentrations 4 +/- 1% and increased glucose production rate 14 +/- 2% and glucose clearance 17 +/- 4%. Overfeeding increased plasma concentrations of insulin, glucagon, and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine approximately 20%. Alanine and branched-chain amino acid concentrations were increased after overfeeding, but serine, threonine, and asparagine concentrations were reduced. Postabsorptive leucine flux, which is an index of proteolysis, was measured using L-[1-13C]leucine as a tracer. Overfeeding increased leucine flux 13 +/- 2% compared with values after 10 days on a weight-maintenance diet. If it is assumed that overfeeding did not alter the fraction of 13CO2 not recovered in breath, there was no change in the portion of leucine flux that was oxidized. Thus the difference between flux and oxidation, which is a theoretical index of protein synthesis, increased 12 +/- 3% after overfeeding. These data suggest that excess caloric intake, without an increase in protein intake, stimulates post-absorptive proteolysis and protein synthesis.

    The Strength and Power Athlete

    Individuals that are involved in strength and power type sports like bodybuilding, powerlifting, football or sprinting may have even higher dietary protein needs than the endurance athlete to maintain a positive nitrogen balance. These athletes have felt for many years that increased protein consumption would promote an accelerated rate of muscle synthesis and decrease the rate of protein catabolism, resulting in greater muscle mass accumulation. There are many conflicting views over how much protein is actually needed to optimally increase muscle mass and/or strength. However, Williams (1985) feels there is sufficient data available to make some general conclusions. It is generally agreed that a pound of muscle contains about 100 g of actual protein. So in order to gain one pound of muscle mass per week we would need to consume at least 14.29 g of extra protein per day along with the additional calories (100 / 7 = 14.29). While it is not know exactly how many extra calories are necessary to synthesize a pound of muscle mass, the National Research Council notes that 5 calories are needed to support one gram of lean tissue growth (Williams, 1992). So simple math would tell us that 500 extra calories (5 x 100 = 500) may be also necessary every day to gain one pound of lean tissue per week.

    Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) using both nitrogen balance and ********* tracers methodology recommended between that 1.4 and 2.4 g/kg/d for athletes involved in strength and power exercise. Later 1.76 g/kg/d was recommended as the accepted RDA for strength and power athletes by Lemon et al (1992) and Tarnopolsky. These studies showed that whole body protein synthesis was elevated at these intakes without an increase in protein oxidation.

    Fern et al. (1991) found that 2.4 g/kg/d was considered protein overload, thus providing no further increase in protein synthesis for strength and power athletes. When strength athletes increased their protein consumption to 2.4 g/kg/d amino acid oxidation increased, but there was no further protein synthesis. Researchers considered this to clearly indicate a protein overload.

    It is interesting to note that Consolazio et al. (1975) Marabel et al. (1979), and Dragan et al. (1985) all reported larger increases in strength, lean body mass (LBM) and nitrogen with much higher protein intakes (3.3, 2.8, and 3.5 g/kg/d respectively). These reports tend to corroborate the more anecdotal beliefs of weight lifters that extremely high dietary protein intakes are essential for optimal muscular development.

    While these results are very interesting, they still did not prove that higher intakes of more than 2.4 g/kg/d actually were responsible for improving muscle mass during resistance training. Researchers are not exactly sure what role the extra calories might have provided by consuming that much extra protein, could have had on protein synthesis. It is suspected that the more calories you take in over energy balance, the less protein you may actually need for optimal protein synthesis (Bucci 1993). In any case a higher protein intake has not been shown to impede sports that involve strength and power.
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    So when amino acids are not being used to build protein or make other nitrogen-containing compounds, amino acids are “wasted” in a sense. This wasting occurs under any of four conditions:
    (1) when there is not enough energy from other sources:
    (2) when there is too much protein. So that not all is needed:
    (3) when there is too much of any amino acid from supplements:
    (4) when the diet’s protein is of to low quality, with to few essential amino acids. To prevent the wasting of dietary protein, and permit the synthesis of needed body protein, three conditions must be met. First, the dietary protein must be adequate in quality. Second, it must supply all essential amino acids in the proper amounts. Third, enough energy yielding carbohydrate and fat must be present, to permit the dietary protein to be used for body requirements and not for energy. Remember that carbohydrates are protein sparing and conserves tissue protein.


    J Nutr 2002 Oct;132(10):3225S-7S
    Latency, duration and dose response relationships of amino acid effects on human muscle protein synthesis.
    Rennie MJ, Bohe J, Wolfe RR Division of Molecular Physiology, School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland, United Kingdom. m.j.rennie@dundee.ac.uk

    The components of the stimulatory effect of food on net deposition of protein are beginning to be identified and separated. One of the most important of these appears to be the effect of amino acids per se in stimulating muscle anabolism. Amino acids appear to have a linear stimulatory effect within the range of normal diurnal plasma concentrations from postabsorptive to postprandial. Within this range, muscle protein synthesis (measured by incorporation of stable isotope tracers of amino acids into biopsied muscle protein) appears to be stimulated approximately twofold; however, little further increase occurs when very high concentrations of amino acids (>2.5 times the normal postabsorptive plasma concentration) are made available. Amino acids provided in surfeit of the ability of the system to synthesize protein are disposed of by oxidation, ureagenesis and gluconeogenesis. The stimulatory effect of amino acids appears to be time dependent; a square wave increase in the availability of amino acids causes muscle protein synthesis to be stimulated and to fall back to basal values, despite continued amino acid availability. The relationship between muscle protein synthesis and insulin availability suggests that most of the stimulatory effects occur at low insulin concentrations, with large increases having no effect. These findings may have implications for our understanding of the body's requirements for protein. The maximal capacity for storage of amino acids as muscle protein probably sets an upper value on the extent to which amino acids can be stored after a single meal. [Note: this reveals the false belief in body builders that enormous amounts of protein produce more muscle mass.]

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    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1989 Oct ;69 (4):745-52 2778033 [Cited: 3]
    Dietary carbohydrate content determines responsiveness to growth hormone in energy-restricted humans.
    D K Snyder , D R Clemmons , L E Underwood
    To determine if diet composition influences responses to GH, we fed 11 obese women diets containing 12 Cal/kg ideal BW (IBW) for 2 5-week study intervals. Nonprotein calories were supplied to 6 subjects as 72% carbohydrate (high carbohydrate diet), and 5 subjects received 80% of their nonprotein calories as lipid (high lipid diet). Protein intake was constant (1.0 g/kg IBW) in both groups. During 1 study interval we gave injections of GH (0.1 mg/kg IBW) every other day for 3 weeks (weeks 2-4), and in the other interval injections of vehicle were given. Subjects ingesting the high carbohydrate diet excreted significantly less urinary nitrogen [660.2 +/- 124.1 mmol/day (mean +/- SD)] than those who received high lipid (794.2 +/- 198.5 mmol/day; P less than 0.001), and GH injections reduced nitrogen excretion in the high carbohydrate subjects (532.8 +/- 123.8 mmol/day), but not in the high lipid subjects (743.7 +/- 126.6 mmol/day). The subjects receiving the high carbohydrate diet had a significant increase in serum insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I; from 36.2 +/- 9.7 to 55.9 +/- 6.6 nmol/L) and urinary C-peptide excretion (from 43.9 +/- 25.6 to 60.8 +/- 29.4 nmol/day) in response to GH. The IGF-I response attenuated slowly over the 3-week treatment interval. On the other hand, the high lipid group had lesser increases in IGF-I (from 31.0 +/- 6.5 to 41.7 +/- 8.8 nmol/L) and C-peptide excretion (from 24.3 +/- 28.9 to 29.8 +/- 32.8 nmol/day), and IGF-I concentrations declined to control values after only 5 days of GH injection. We believe that this initial IGF-I response was due to an antecedent 35-Cal balanced diet. The mean increment in serum FFA 4 h after GH injection was significantly less in subjects fed the high lipid diet (0.53 +/- 0.40 meq/L) than in those fed the high carbohydrate diet (0.83 +/- 0.43 meq/L). GH injections produced more body fat loss than injections of vehicle whether expressed as percent body fat lost (GH, 3.7 +/- 1.0%; vehicle, 2.8 +/- 0.7%, P less than 0.05) or as the fraction of weight lost as fat (fat loss/weight loss; GH, 0.81 +/- 0.13; vehicle, 0.64 +/- 0.08; P less than 0.005). There was an inverse correlation between the percentage of body fat lost and mean urinary C-peptide excretion during GH injections (r = -0.70; P less than 0.05), suggesting that stimulation of insulin secretion by GH might antagonize the tendency of GH to promote fat loss.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)
    Last edited by pineapple; 06-13-2007 at 11:45 PM.

  2. #2
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    good read, but I think I will have to reread it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member outlawtas's Avatar
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    Just read over the highlights but it seems on point IMO. I don't think anyone really needs more than 2g protein/lb, 1.5 should suffice.

  4. #4
    Pro Bodybuilder pineapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawtas2
    Just read over the highlights but it seems on point IMO. I don't think anyone really needs more than 2g protein/lb, 1.5 should suffice.
    It's per kg, not lb. So it's like 180g tops.

    If you follow the equation of the high protein diet, it doesnt add up.
    2.2g/lb. For a 200lbs male, about 440g/day. That's almost 1lbs.

    365days per year= almost 300lbs of pure protein.

    Muscle gained per year on average, 5-7lbs.

    300lbs protein taken per year=6lbs muscle per year???? That dont add up to me or even make sense.

    Some guys claim they saw a difference when they bumped their protein by 100-150g per day, that's 400-600 cal increase per day. It's the calories that count. If the body cant use the protein, it cant store it, so it will use it for fuel. That's EXPENSIVE fuel.
    Last edited by pineapple; 04-29-2007 at 05:26 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member outlawtas's Avatar
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    I meant kg's

    but I don't agree with 180g tops...I just don't see it. I mean yes studies can show this and that but at the end of the day BB'ers are doing what works. There is a reason why almost every bodybuilder gets in at least 300g of protein per day.

  6. #6
    Aztech
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    i'd rather be over the protien limit then under. I don't workout for less than 100% results.

  7. #7
    Senior Member outlawtas's Avatar
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    btw i'm gonna move this to the diet forum

  8. #8
    Death Dealer ManOfMuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple

    Some guys claim they saw a difference when they bumped their protein by 100-150g per day, that's 400-600 cal increase per day. It's the calories that count. If the body cant use the protein, it cant store it, so it will use it for fuel. That's EXPENSIVE fuel.
    I agree.

  9. #9
    Pro Bodybuilder pineapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawtas2
    I meant kg's

    but I don't agree with 180g tops...I just don't see it. I mean yes studies can show this and that but at the end of the day BB'ers are doing what works. There is a reason why almost every bodybuilder gets in at least 300g of protein per day.
    The reason is??? what they're been told to take in by someone else or what they have read in a magazine. The equation of Protein intake per day doesnt not add up to the yeilds per year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aczech
    i'd rather be over the protien limit then under. I don't workout for less than 100% results.
    THat's like saying ,... I'm gonna be over the limit on steroids or carbs etc. More steroids (than needed) doesnt equal more gains, More protein (than needed) doesnt not equal more gains, ...Your body in the case of these two will only use what it needs.
    And if you want to keep your piss expensive you feel free to do so.
    Last edited by pineapple; 04-30-2007 at 03:31 PM.

  10. #10
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    just a fun thing ive read. if some of the bodybuilders could metabolise all the protein they ate they would gain rougly 500 kg of muscle a year.

  11. #11
    Death Dealer ManOfMuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple
    And if you want to keep your piss expensive you feel free to do so.
    hahaha

  12. #12
    Aztech
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple
    THat's like saying ,... I'm gonna be over the limit on steroids or carbs etc. More steroids (than needed) doesnt equal more gains, More protein (than needed) doesnt not equal more gains, ...Your body in the case of these two will only use what it needs.
    And if you want to keep your piss expensive you feel free to do so.
    Dude..why do you always do this? You compare protein to steroids...the sides effects of one do not equal the other. Yeh, i'd rather be under the the blood alcohol limit than over if i were driving home. But to not take in 100% of the protien your body could use is like using a protein that's has 80% bioavailability over one that has 90%....it's just kinda stupid.

    I agree, taking 500g a day is overkill.

  13. #13
    getfitdoc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aczech
    i'd rather be over the protien limit then under. I don't workout for less than 100% results.
    I agree.

    I'd rather error on the side of too much.

    If my body can only use 180grams, and I take in 200-220 grams, thats not that big of a deal.

  14. #14
    Rookie Tagula_Sunrise's Avatar
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    Ive thought this for a while to be honest.

    It will differ from person to person though and their lean mass, total mass and Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) usage.

  15. #15
    Cycle, slin, test, HGH Lucky13's Avatar
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    I'd have to agree on this cycle I decided to drop my protein intake by a third 300g to 200g, I still made damn decent gains without wasting money, feeling cronicly dehydrated, having to drink gallons and gallons of water... I was pissing every 30mins!, skin felt way better...whole cycle felt healthier diet wise.

  16. #16
    Pro Bodybuilder pineapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky13
    I'd have to agree on this cycle I decided to drop my protein intake by a third 300g to 200g, I still made damn decent gains without wasting money, feeling cronicly dehydrated, having to drink gallons and gallons of water... I was pissing every 30mins!, skin felt way better...whole cycle felt healthier diet wise.
    If your intake of protein is 200g a day: You've injested a TOTAL OF 160lbs of pure protein. Now, how much muscle, did all that 160 LBS of protein build you in one year? 5-10lbs? 5-10lbs built muscle vs 160lbs injested protein= some expensive piss. That's 32 (5lb) juggs of whey protein, average of $20 cost per jugg = $640 per year.

    This calculation is made assuming that all protein came from POWDER. If it was food protein, then the cost would be doulbe, tripple or higher.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecke70
    just a fun thing ive read. if some of the bodybuilders could metabolise all the protein they ate they would gain rougly 500 kg of muscle a year.
    Bump this for newbies.
    Last edited by pineapple; 06-14-2007 at 05:24 PM.

  17. #17
    Death Dealer ManOfMuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple
    If your intake of protein is 200g a day: You've injested a TOTAL OF 160lbs of pure protein. Now, how much muscle, did all that 160 LBS of protein build you in one year? 5-10lbs? 5-10lbs built muscle vs 160lbs injested protein= some expensive piss. That's 32 (5lb) juggs of whey protein, average of $20 cost per jugg = $640 per year. Maybe not that pricey but you could buy a lot of chicken and steak instead.

    Bump this for newbies.
    Your logic here is retarded but the original point of the post is sound.

  18. #18
    Pro Bodybuilder pineapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiftTillIDie
    Your logic here is retarded but the original point of the post is sound.
    Just wanted to do the math for everyone, so people can see how much they are spending when they dont have to.

    What kind of logic is " I'll take more protein JUST IN CASE it does work"?

  19. #19
    Aztech
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple
    There is no logic there? You contradict your own statement, because both points are the same. More protein doesnt mean more muscle and also it's expensive piss.
    I don't want to get into a pissing match, especially when I don't have a background in anatomy or anything...but when you work out, aren't you trying to create tears in your muscles so they rebuild stronger? Would this tearing down of the muscle lead to loss of mass? I think so, but i could be wrong. I think there are more processes involved than simply "i eat 160lbs of protien to gain 10lbs of mass" maybe the body really rebuilds a lot mass and you are putting on 50lbs but lossing 40lbs from the destructive nature of working out? I don't really know, just a thought.

    I do agree though, taking in excess of 1g/lb bodyweight a day unless highly active is really overkill.

  20. #20
    Brick Johnson, Intern thurstonKG's Avatar
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    either way get your protein sources from food mainly and use shakes because they are convenient for ppl on tight schedules...

  21. #21
    Death Dealer ManOfMuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple
    Just wanted to do the math for everyone, so people can see how much they are spending when they dont have to.

    What kind of logic is " I'll take more protein JUST IN CASE it does work"?
    Yeah, but you're acting under the assumption that every gram of protein we take in would or could go straight into new muscle. We can't gain an infinite amount of muscle. That would be like saying every gram of fat we take in is stored as fat. It's just silly.

  22. #22
    Ride Till I Die Double3's Avatar
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    lol @ this

  23. #23
    Pro Bodybuilder pineapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiftTillIDie
    Yeah, but you're acting under the assumption that every gram of protein we take in would or could go straight into new muscle. We can't gain an infinite amount of muscle. That would be like saying every gram of fat we take in is stored as fat. It's just silly.
    Yeah, you're right, it's gonna be used up as energy. Same goes for the extra protein.

  24. #24
    Rookie karkov's Avatar
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    Any time you have extra anything in your system you piss it out. Ex vitiaminC, alchohol, water, anything; why not have the extra if you need it?

  25. #25
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    well if it's extra and you piss it out then you don't need it..

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