Suppressing Prolactin Safely, Effectively and Cheaply

[hhajdo]

Originally posted by DrJMW
Most of you do not understand the action of prolactin in the body and its relationship to progesterone (a hormone that stimulates prolactin release). Anadrol, DECA, FINA, and Tren cause elevated prolactin levels. None of these drugs aromatize or affect estrogen levels. They do stimulate progesterone release. Increased progesterone will cause an increase of prolactin. Increased estrogen levels can also stimulate increased prolactin levels. Prolactin stimulates the glandular tissue in the male breast. This is what causes the lactation and other gyno-like symptoms.

When a user uses Testsoterone and an anti-e, he keeps his estrogen levels in check, and suffers no estrogenic or prolactin sides. When a user uses DECA, FINA, TREN or Anadrol, he may increase his prolactin levels. Bromo was a first-generation drug of choice for lowering prolactin levels with BB'ers. The problem with Bromo is proper dosing and the nasty side effects. Then along came Dostinex. It was easier to dose and it had no sides. Both of these drugs directly inhibit prolactin. Stanozolol or Winstrol also inhibits prolactin, but it does it differently. Winstrol blocks progesterone receptors. By doing so, it inhibits prolactin. While Dostinex is the safest way to control Prolactin, it is the most expensive. My next choice would be to use low-dose Winstrol (50mg, Mon, Wed, Fri) with my DECA, FINA/Tren, or Anadrol. You know the problems with Winstrol, but if the cycle is eight weeks or less, you will be OK. Also, I have found that if one keeps his weekly DECA dosing below 400mg weekly that Proalctin doesn't seem to be a problem. The important thing is to keep prolactin and estrogen under control during one's cycles.

It seems that you're the one who doesn't understand...

Even strong progestins like medroxyprogesterone acetate sometimes don't affect PRL.

For example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


Nandrolone doesn't stimulate progesterone release, it's a progestin itself - actually a selective modulator of progesterone receptor which means that it can bind the PR as an agonist or antagonist....

The research I've seen which addressed this shows no effect of nandrolone (as a part of an AAS stack) on PRL, so please don't make wrong assumptions:



Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism
Copyright Q 1993 by The Endocrine Society
Vol. 16, No. 4

Ingestion of Androgenic-Anabolic Steroids Induces Mild Thyroidal Impairment in Male Body Builders

ROMAN DEYSSIG AND MICHAEL WEISSEL
Third Medical University Clinic and L. Boltzmann Institute for Nuclear Medicine, A-1090 Vienna, Austria


Thirteen bodybuilders, recruited in local training centers, with normal thyroid function were investigated. Thyroid dysfunction was excluded by measurement of free Td, palpation of the thyroid, and clinical investigation. All athletes performed regular strength training up to six times a week. Five of the athletes admitted self administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids. These were obtained from nonmedical sources. The start of steroid intake was at least 6 weeks before the study. The individual doses of their self-reported “stacking regimen” (two or more different steroids simultaneously; see Ref. 12) were as follows. Testosterone was used im once or twice a week in different esters, such as
propionate, phenylpropionate, capronate, isocaprionate, and enantate. Nandrolone (17@-hydroxy-4-e&en-3-one) was injected once a week as phenylpropionate or decanoate....

Tables 2 and 3 give the mean values and SES of the serum hormone concentrations in both groups. Basal TBG, total Ts,
and total T4 were significantly lower in the group of athletes taking steroids (Table 2), with no significant difference in free Td, TSH, and PRL between the two groups.

Basal and stimulated PRL levels were unaffected by androgens, as has been described previously for pharmaco-logical doses in hypogonadal men (10).

---------------------

Clin Nephrol 1989 Oct;32(4):198-201 Related Articles, Links


Anabolic steroid-associated hypogonadism in male hemodialysis patients.

Maeda Y, Nakanishi T, Ozawa K, Kijima Y, Nakayama I, Shoji T, Sasaoka T.

Dialysis Center, Yokosuka Kyosai Hospital, Kanagawa, Japan.

Hypogonadism in male hemodialysis patients has been previously reported. However, its precise pathogenesis has not yet been clarified. Mepitiostane and nandrolone decanoate are anabolic steroids prescribed for uremic anemia, and those may possibly exacerbate uremic gonadal damage. We studied the influences of these steroids on male gonadal function. Seventy-six hemodialysis patients were selected and examined for levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), follicular stimulating hormone (FSH), total testosterone, and prolactin. Twenty-three patients who received anabolic steroids showed lower testosterone values (205.2 +/- 35.6 ng/dl) than did patients without these steroids (449.7 +/- 21.3 ng/dl). Gonadotropins and prolactin showed no significant differences between the patients with and without the steroids. The testosterone values of three patients with mepitiostane increased after they stopped taking steroids. One patient suffering from complete aspermia recovered (sperm count: 0/ml to 1300 x 10(4)/ml) after discontinuation of mepitiostane and administration of human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG). This clinical study suggests that some anabolic steroids play a role in uremic hypogonadism; thus mepitiostane or its analogues should be carefully prescribed for young male patients.

[hhajdo]

Originally posted by DrJMW
[B]
Winstrol blocks progesterone receptors. By doing so, it inhibits prolactin. [B/]

This was also shown to be BS. And PR antagonists can also stimulate PRL secretion.

[hhajdo]

BTW, there's some evidence that anadrol is NOT a PR agonist (I didn't read the actual study).....


..."However we do find medical studies looking at this possibility. One such tested the progestational activity; of various steroids including nandrolone, norethandrolone, methandrostenolone, testosterone and oxymetholone. It reported no significant progestational effect inherent in oxymetholone or methandrostenolone, slight activity with testosterone and strong progestational effect inherent in nandrolone and norethandrolone. With such findings it starts to seem much more likely that oxymetholone can intrinsically activate the estrogen receptor itself, similar to but more profoundly than the estrogenic androgen methandriol. Clearly if this is the case we can only combat the estrogenic side effects of oxymetholone with estrogen receptor antagonists such as Nolvadex or Clomid, and not with an aromatase inhibitor..."


..."But a study2 testing the progestational effects of oxymetholone and methandrostenolone against those of testosterone as well as nandrolone and its metabolites showed that the progestagenic activity of oxymetholone wasn't even in the neighbourhood of that of testosterone, let alone nandrolone..."


(2)

Desausles PA, Les hormones anabolisantes de point de vue experimental (Anabolic hormones from an experimental viewpoint), Helv. Med. Acta 1960 , 479-503

[hhajdo]

Originally posted by TxLonghorn
I know this to NOT be true from personal trial & error cycles.

Blood test ? Which AAS did you use ?

[TxLonghorn]

Originally posted by hhajdo
Blood test ? Which AAS did you use ?

Deca and tren (different times). After stopping both, gyno symptoms stopped. The problem with deca was that it took a loooong time to stop. Luckily the dosages for both were very minimal. Deca was 300mg and the tren was 75mg eod. The deca was a long time ago and then I had one inject of when on cycle to see if the bromo would help with deca.

The last time this happened was tren/test. After my second shot of tren I had symptoms. I hit the bromo, stopped the tren, symptoms went away. Stayed on bromo, added tren, no symptoms. But I hated bromo, had to ramp it up slowly, felt like shit on it, etc., etc. Plus it's expensive and I had to use an overseas pharmacy to get it. Also, I experimented with the dosage of the tren and went to 150mg eod and still no itchy nips while on bromo.

I had some leftover deca as well since the gyno symptoms hit me almost immediately. I took one shot to see if I would notice any symptoms, and nothing. Again, I was still on the bromo.

Soooo, I know that being on test didn't lower prolactin enough to stop any gyno problems with tren or deca. However, the bromo did. Since bromo is a pain in the ass in just about every way, I have shyed away from tren and deca.

And when it first happened on deca, I was taking eq at the same time at 400mg/week. I stopped the deca, tried winny (because at that time, the winny will stop progesterone gyno was rampant) at 50mg/day for a week, then 100mg/day for a week, neither one worked worth a shit and my nips were in serious pain.

I was also taking nolva at the time. That didn't help either.

After that cycle, I stuck to gear that aromatized and was able to control the gyno symptoms with anti e's like nolva, arimi, and letro. Btw, I only take anti-e's when I get gyno symptoms, and I always get gyno symptoms.

I have had itchy nips on 250mgtest/600mg/eq, which is one reason why I have never gone with high dosages on my cycles. I have never had any confidence in the anti-es until letro because I would still get a twinge or two now and then, regardless of dosage until I tried letro. Of course the problem with letro is inability to function sexually. Hello cialis and hello drug cascade...I'm taking tren, but that shuts me down pretty hard so I'll add test, but the tren also gives me gyno so I'll need to add bromo, but then the test can give me gyno as well so I'll add in letro, well that makes me limp, so I'll add cialis...

I know I am not typical, but it still happens. I am soooo susceptible to gyno it isn't even funny. I know what works and what doesn't. The fact that bromo stops the itch after a few days when taking tren/deca, and the fact that b6 is touted to be an alternative to bromo means I will try it.

Blood test or not, bromo stopped the gyno. And I hate doctors, so I'm not getting a blood test anytime soon. I now read that B6 can take the place of bromo...I'm going to try tren or deca and see what happens. I see this as no risk since I still have 2 packets of parlodel. But if the b6 works, then I can now do a cycle like everybody else.

Hell, I might try this in the next week or two. If the b6 helps me, do I think it will help everybody? No. But if it helps me, it will help somebody else with similar problems, and the fact that stonecold is using it with success gives me great hope.

Bottom line I know these things: other gear does not suppress prolactin to the point that it will not cause a problem if I am also taking deca or tren (I cannot comment on anadrol). I am HIGHLY susceptible to gyno both estrogenic and otherwise. I have found that letro is far superior to nolva and arimidex for ME when it comes to estrogen suppression. I have found that neither nolva nor winny do diddly when it comes to helping with gyno from deca/tren. Suppressing estrogen doesn't help my gyno at all when taking deca or tren. Bromo helps gyno problems when it comes to deca/tren. I *hope* b6 does as well as bromo, because if it does, I am getting back on the tren bandwagon and telling everybody I can about B6. And with the study mentioned, it took something like 5 days. So if it works, it works pretty immediately, if it doesn't, it doesn't and I will continue looking. Dostinex is extremely expensive as well and imo not an option. If B6 doesn't work, I will stick to aromatizing gear, winny, and ox.

I guess that's why I think this is such great news and can't understand why everybody wants to dismiss this. Hell, the winny blocks the PR got more love and there weren't ANY studies or mention of doctors using it like we have for B6. And back then winny was freaking expensive. We are talking $3 wasted if it doesn't help you, not a buck a tab like with bromo or nolva, and a trip to the grocery store. No sweaty palms waiting for the mail to arrive either.

[TxLonghorn]

I think I still have a full bottle, or close to it, of ttokkyo deca as well as 20ml of tren....I might try this...

[DADAWG]

Originally posted by TxLonghorn
I think I still have a full bottle, or close to it, of ttokkyo deca as well as 20ml of tren....I might try this...

good luck bro it sucks being that gyno prone . i didnt havegyno problems with tren but no matter how much test i ran with it my libido was in the crapper . no more tren for me god bless test and dbol

[TxLonghorn]

Originally posted by DADAWG
good luck bro it sucks being that gyno prone . i didnt havegyno problems with tren but no matter how much test i ran with it my libido was in the crapper . no more tren for me god bless test and dbol

Tell me about it...the biggest baddest cycle without anti-es I was able to run was test 250mg/eq 400mg. I had to take anti es with eq at 600mg, and I tried 500mg test...I had to stop that one immediately, but then all I had was arimidex.

Now with letro I feel confidant I can run a decent amount of test next cycle.

Now you have an insight into why I research so much...because I don't really care for some lumpy-ass breasts. Believe me, I'd much rather be doing other stuff, I just don't have that option unless I want to be limited to eq/winny cycles for the rest of my life.

[Nelson Montana]

TX: You tend to latch onto one thing that was said and misconstrue it. I was just using the RDA as a reference point. At no time was I suggesting that was all you needed or that more B6 wouldn't be benficial.

I like the idea of extra B6. I just think it has limited application. Not only do B vitamins work best in the complex, they are water soluable, so they're only present in the system for about 12 hours. Therfore taking 1000X's of time over the dosage will just be pissed out.

The doc is right, but you'd think people should know that Deca, Anadrol and Tren increase prog and too much prog will have a femizizing effect. Estrogen isnt the only female hormone you know.

[instynct999]

Originally posted by DUANABOL
I agree with this 100%! Control the estrogen and you will not have any nasty prolactin sides from things like Deca. I know this to be true from personal trial & error cycles.

Amen

[DUANABOL]

Originally posted by hhajdo
As long as you keep your estrogen levels under control, you don't need to worry about prolactin.

Originally posted by DUANABOL
I agree with this 100%! Control the estrogen and you will not have any nasty prolactin sides from things like Deca. I know this to be true from personal trial & error cycles.

Originally posted by TxLonghorn
I know this to NOT be true from personal trial & error cycles.

Well, all I can say to that is...WHAT WORKS FOR ONE DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK FOR ANOTHER.

I've cycled Test & Deca together w/o Nolva...gyno & lactation.

I've cycled Test & Deca together w/ Nolva...no gyno & no lactation.

[TxLonghorn]

Originally posted by DUANABOL

Well, all I can say to that is...WHAT WORKS FOR ONE DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK FOR ANOTHER.


My point exactly. I totally controlled estrogen, and still had gyno problems. I think it would be nice to be able to control gyno so easily, but in the real world, it just doesn't work like that.

[TxLonghorn]

Originally posted by Nelson Montana
TX: You tend to latch onto one thing that was said and misconstrue it. I was just using the RDA as a reference point. At no time was I suggesting that was all you needed or that more B6 wouldn't be benficial.

Possibly, if I did it was because you seemed dismissive that it could actually work.

Originally posted by Nelson Montana
THe thing is...who's deficient in B6? Likely, nobody.

A standard multiple vit/min has about 500X's the RDA of B6. between an aditional MRP and food, you get more B6 than you can possibly use.

And here is your original quote where you say you get more b6 than you can possibly use. I don't see how I latched onto or misconstrued what you stated. And it does seem you say more b6 wouldn't be beneficial. But I did just skim through it.

Anyways, I think it's worth a shot, especially when you consider all the 'I've got gyno' posts as well as the fact I have had gyno problems consistently since beginning gear. And if you have gyno symptoms and nolva or another anti e isn't helping and you are taking gear that is known to raise prolactin, why not try it?

It's threads like these that make these boards interesting. Finding something simple and yet possibly effective. I hope this works, because bromo just plain blows.

[Bimmer]

ok just calrifying this so bear with me. I am prone to gyno from deca and tren caused by progestrogen. WOuld B6 help me with that or is bromo a must?

[mcbruiser]

great info, thanks for being so candid, tx. valuable information.

damn female hormones causing trouble, evidence that men and women are made from the same stuff, just in different amounts. playing with your hormones is like juggling.

im guessing the future is in genetic manipulation.

[Yo Tengo Madera?]

Some studies indicate that chronic B6 use may cause neurologic symptoms such as parasthesias

[Nelson Montana]

Originally posted by TxLonghorn
Possibly, if I did it was because you seemed dismissive that it could actually work.



And here is your original quote where you say you get more b6 than you can possibly use. I don't see how I latched onto or misconstrued what you stated. And it does seem you say more b6 wouldn't be beneficial. But I did just skim through it.

Anyways, I think it's worth a shot, especially when you consider all the 'I've got gyno' posts as well as the fact I have had gyno problems consistently since beginning gear. And if you have gyno symptoms and nolva or another anti e isn't helping and you are taking gear that is known to raise prolactin, why not try it?

It's threads like these that make these boards interesting. Finding something simple and yet possibly effective. I hope this works, because bromo just plain blows.

I stand by those statements.

Why not try it? Because there are side effects to everything-- something that is woefully overlooked on these boards. As mentioned, B vitamns are meant to be ingested in the complex and excess is excreted withing hours. And as the last poster mentioned, too much will cause nuerological problems as well as anxiety and insomnia.

TX, it sounds to me like you're a perfect canditdate for Primo and low dose test, along with a SHBG lowering compound, be it proviron or the PF supps. SAM-e wouldn't hurt either. Sometimes one as to accept and work around limitations instead of trying to find remedies that can backfire.

[EZstreet]

"And I hate doctors, so I'm not getting a blood test anytime soon."


Check into this. I've did it a few times. No docs(no insurance) and no hassles. You really should get your bloodwork done. TX
http://www.directlabs.com/index.php

[EZstreet]

Also for those wishing to try b6 ;the neurological problems are well documented.

I would think it best to obtain a injectble B complex(very ez to get) with the addition of b6 oral supplementation(trying not to go too extreme) for optimal benefits.
Nelson is right on this one as far as over-loading one b vit IMHO

[DADAWG]

Originally posted by Yo Tengo Madera?
Some studies indicate that chronic B6 use may cause neurologic symptoms such as parasthesias

i dont think using those dose for a 10 week cycle 2 times a year is chronic

[TxLonghorn]

Originally posted by Nelson Montana

TX, it sounds to me like you're a perfect canditdate for Primo and low dose test, along with a SHBG lowering compound, be it proviron or the PF supps. SAM-e wouldn't hurt either. Sometimes one as to accept and work around limitations instead of trying to find remedies that can backfire.

Exactly, and that's my problem. Who wants to stick to a cycle that they put little old ladies and children on? Plus primo and proviron are insanely expensive, imo. Lessee, I can get enough primo for half a gram a week for 10 weeks...that's 5 grams, at $12/amp ea amp 100mg....that's $600...and that is IF the primo isn't fake, and that's IF I can get that price. Or I could go the do it your own way and get that for about $400-500 depending on all the goodies it takes to make it.

Dammit, I want my fina back. I took it before and didn't have any problems...and now my precious, precious...

The way I look at is this...I am never going to be confused with a bodybuilder, but at least I can look lean and athletic. Once I get to that point, fine, I'll stick with something like eq, or primo if it ever comes down in price. But until then, I've gotta keep looking for remedies, imo. And if this works, great.

[TxLonghorn]

Originally posted by Yo Tengo Madera?
Some studies indicate that chronic B6 use may cause neurologic symptoms such as parasthesias

Isn't that a tingling sensation? I'll have to look into this and see what I can find out...plus, being water soluble, I would think stopping for a couple of days would solve any problem arising from too much b6.

[TxLonghorn]

Found this so far on b6 on a discussion about overdosing on it...

Dr John Hathcock, a former regulatory scientist with the US Food and Drug Administration brought over to Britain by the supplement manufacturers in July, says: "All [the report] really shows is that if you take vitamin B6 in ridiculously large doses over a very long time, then you'll eventually develop reversible adverse effects."

The FDA has investigated the toxicity of vitamin B6 and, like most of Europe, allows it to be sold freely at levels up to 200mg.

So the tingling is reversible if you stop the b6. Who knows what 600mg/day of b6 can do for long periods? I doubt this is high on anybody's to do list to find out.

Also...

The committee, which deals with matters of toxicity relating to food, consumer products and the environment, had access to a number of studies that have found vitamin B6 safe at 200mg a day. But it based its recommendation on a small 12-year-old study carried out by a Harley Street gynaecologist, Dr Katherina Dalton, who is best known for her work with progesterone in treating PMS. This study stands alone in finding vitamin B6 toxic at 50mg doses. The committee's review stated: "We consider it would be unwise to ignore this evidence in the light of other supporting animal data" - data that included evidence of toxicity in dogs at levels equivalent to a human intake of 3,000mg a day.

My guess is that since pms is supposedly treated with b6, but that it needs to be at 50-200mg/day, this doctor wanted to prove that her way was the only way that was safe. Who knows, it wouldn't be the first time.

Anyways, that's enough for me. I'll try it. I've got some deca as well as fina as well as parlodel.

[Drveejay11]

BUMPING a great thread...........any more thoughts on this?

[TxLonghorn]

Originally posted by Drveejay11
BUMPING a great thread...........any more thoughts on this?

My thoughts are that vitamin b6 is awesome for suppressing prolactin and the sides just aren't there, regardless of what nelson seems to think. It's funny, the argument against this says that no way a vitamin can act like a drug and then they turn around and say the sides will be worse than a drug. Whatever.

It works, many have now tried it and it works better than I could have hoped. Does that mean it will work for everyone? Doubtful, test and dbol doesn't work for everyone, why should anything else? However, if you have the option of b6 or bromo or dostinex, imo there is no choice, it's b6 all the way. Bromo is horrible as far as sides go, and it's not the cheapest either. And then you have dostinex which the sides aren't as bad as bromo, but it's several dollars a pill vs. several dollars for a month's supply of b6.

Even if you are skeptical, try it and risk the $3. You'll be glad you did.

Also, a note on the sides, it seems studies have shown that it takes weeks or months at 2-6 grams/day of b6 to get them and that as soon as you stop, the sides stop. And the sides are just tingling in the extremities.