My PCT Protocol

[muscleup]

THE BEST stuff I have read in years....

[muscleup]

Is taking 250i'u's 3 times per week cool ? say on, Mon, wed, fri ?

[SWALE]

Nelson--When I say I do not make ANY profit on the dispensation of the meds, that is EXACTLY what I mean. Not one red cent. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Never have, never will. It is as simple as that. I should think that such a helpful ethical decison would be appreciated, not called "embarrassing myself". LOL.

I made this ethical practice decision on my first day. The reasons are:

1). To truly help the Bro's out.

2). Because I am trying my best to get them away from Black Market drugs (for the meds I CAN provide), which generally are cheaper than the real thing, I have to keep the prices as low as possible. Indeed a couple of the drugs have actually gone down in price as we have been able to find better suppliers. Others have gone up, as the pharm companies keep squeezing all of us.

3). In doing it this way, no one can EVER say that I am in this to sell drugs, or to make money.

[SWALE]

muscleup--Yes. As always, try to find out what is best for you. There are few hard-and-fast rules where this stuff comes in, because there is so much variability across the male population. We also have SO much to learn still about the science involved. Keep trying new things. I think one thing that helps the Pro's is that they have done all this so many times that they have learned how their bodies respond. They can then make minor adjustments, to "tweak" performance, while beginners are still largely stumbling around in the dark. I am just trying to help keep you from stubbing you toe as you do.

[muscleup]

well I run Long cycles, 6-8 months long...would it be ok to use hcg the entire time to help prevent atrophy ?...I use a pretty aggressive yet standard PCT and I usually recover in 2-3 months...

[SWALE]

I would say it is ESPECIALLY important for you to use it throughout then.

[muscleup]

Thank you swale...I hold you in very high regard, and you have made me look at things a bit differently...I know my cycles are bad enough, I want to make sure that I'm doing a much as I can PCT to bring my natty test up as quick as possible...I may seek your consultaion soon...Thanks

[Musclemar]

Great info!

[ninja235]

I am new to this board but had to jump in here.
You don't EVER need to use HCG..do a search on google and learn about clomid.
clomid stimulates LH which is responsible for testicular atrophy.
50mg of clomid 3-4 days a week will keep your nuts from shrinking during a cycle this is what I do and many others and we all experiance minimal to zero testicular shrinkage.
Nolvadex lowers IGF therefore it's only use shoukld be fore emergency gyno stopping.

[bleachcola]

Originally posted by ninja235
I am new to this board but had to jump in here.
You don't EVER need to use HCG..do a search on google and learn about clomid.
clomid stimulates LH which is responsible for testicular atrophy.
50mg of clomid 3-4 days a week will keep your nuts from shrinking during a cycle this is what I do and many others and we all experiance minimal to zero testicular shrinkage.
Nolvadex lowers IGF therefore it's only use shoukld be fore emergency gyno stopping.

Wow. I bet you use dbol bridges too.

[bleachcola]

For all you newbies out there, the use of clomid will not prevent testicle shrinkage during a cycle. Yes, clomid does stimulate the release of LH, but not when supraphysiological levels of testosterone are present, i.e. during a cycle. The fact of the matter is that nothing will stimulate the release of LH while on a cycle. That is why a LH analog (hcg) must be used to treat testicular atrophy. And no, nolvadex should not just be used for emergency gyno treatment. Studies comparing tamoxifen and clomiphene clearly show that nolvadex is the better choice for PCT. Tamoxifen increases LH responsiveness to GnRH, while clomiphene actually lowers it.

[ninja235]

clomid can mimic lh during a cycle I should have been more clear on that. and yes it prevents the nuts from shrinking if you don't believe me try it.
here is a nice diagram showing clomid bypases the HPT
http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/human_...infert_14.html

[bleachcola]

Originally posted by ninja235
clomid can mimic lh during a cycle I should have been more clear on that. and yes it prevents the nuts from shrinking if you don't believe me try it.
here is a nice diagram showing clomid bypases the HPT
http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/human_...infert_14.html

That diagram does not support your arguement in any way. Please, just give up. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

[traveler97]

great reading from swale. looks like the clomid arguement will continue into the future.

[Ozzy27]

Ok, So what if I didn't use it all the way through this long cycle I'm on ? How would I dose it and when ? I plan on running this cycle until August , I started it in December. Should I just start with 250iu ed now and run it that way until the end ? Thanks

[steven]

i still dont know what HCT is. :/

[Bobwhite]

Hey guys, may I jump in here? I don't know Nelson nor the doctors on this board. I agree with Nelson that the "educated medical community" often have conducted years of research--stood on their findings--only to retract them years later (in sum, the docs got it wrong). I think that this was one of Nelson's more salient points. I myself have a doctorate's degree and know that some of the most educated folks can get it dead wrong. (I remember two decades ago when physician after physician told us that steroids only provide a placebo effect. The irrefutable truth is that those educated doctors on Good Morning America et al. were dead wrong. In other words, those physicians were full of it, while the 17 year old high school drop out who said "gear is good shit" was right.) So education itself DOES NOT make truth. It is, however, a factor to consider obviously.

Now, having said that. Both education and experience are important factors in determining truth. Based on these factors, I disagree with Nelson's viewpoints on Clomid (if I understand them right). Why? Not because I am a PhD and he's not--but because my own experiences have resulted in a different opinion. Maybe Nelson is out to sell his products--if this is the case, it is only natural that one is more likely to believe in his product rather than that of a competitor. (E. g, work for a Ford dealership long enough and you will come to believe that they are better than Chevys.) Nothing wrong in that--just another factor to consider when reading his posts.

What I look for is research, not anecdotes. My experiences I accept--other's I do not. Similarly, if a doctor gives me his opinion and a fool cites a double-blind study over ten years, I am going to go with the fool. So in these debates, let's stop throwing credentials around and let's cite studies, or other verifiables.

I know, I've rambled too much already. Sorry for the long post. Not intended as a flame job.

Satient2003

[Nelson Montana]

Quick points.

I'm not out to attack anyone. I think it's great that Swole is looking to help people. That doesn't mean he's right about everything. I simply respectfully disagree on some points.

Clomid may help some people, but it hurts a lot of people.

I'm not against prescription drugs. In fact, I recommend low dose A-dex during heavy cycle use.

The supps aren't meant to be a replacement for anything. (Although in some case they'll be all you need). They are a great adjunct though. Even guys who like Clomid have been using Post-Cycle and loving the results. It just helps make the recovery a little easier and a little faster.

[juiceman1001]

Originally posted by SWALE
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Thank you for the informative post. I will explain why I believe arimidex, the highly potent aromatase inhibitor, should be used post cycle instead of novadex or clomid. The goal of post cycle drugs is to normalize HTPA. In order to do this LH, GnRH, and natural testosterone must be brought up to normal levels. LH and GnRH secretion are regulated by negative feedback from estrogen and androgens. Nolvadex/clomid is used because of its ability to inhibit negative feedback at the level of hypothalamus (GnRH) and pituitary (LH) by antagonizing the estrogen receptors. But many also believe the Nolvadex/clomid have a direct stimulatory effect on the release of LH and/or GnRH. This is not true, novadex/clomid has never been shown to directly stimulate LH or GnRH. Then clearly there is no advantage of nolvadex/clomid over arimidex. To normalize HTPA we must eliminate the negative feedback from estrogen and no drug will do this better than arimidex. I suggest that HCG be used throughout cycle as you recommend and post cycle for 7-10 days as you also recommend. During the post cycle 7-10 days while HCG is being used there will be higher estrogen levels because of higher testosterone levels so .5 mg of arimidex should be used for the first 15 days, followed by a tapering so that the ratio of testosterone to estrogen can be normalized. Thus the next 15 days should be .25 mg per day followed by another 15 days of .25 mg every other day. It has been shown that cholesterol level, in particular HDL, negatively affected by steroid use and anti-estrogen use. In order to combat this niacin at 3000 mg daily should be used, this will ensure a healthy lipid profile. The only reason nolvadex/clomid is still used is because of tradition, not because of science.

[willieman]

How can or does femera (Letro) work into PCT now a days?

[Firefighter]

Originally posted by bleachcola
What are your credentials?

Yes nelson I would like to hear that as well. You are seeming to dodge this fact of the matter.

[Morb]

nelson simply is a deranged idiot who is pushing his own products, he eventually gets booted off of every board ive ever seen him on, yes drs can be wrong, and that steroid is placebo deal was just antidrug propaganda, drs didnt believe it, its reefer madness, swale is closer to the truth than nelson is and the majority apparently recognizes that

[juiceisgood]

Bringing back an old forum. Is Swale still on here?

[SWALE]

Nelson--I agree with you that Clomid "has hurt a lot of people". Many can not tolerate it for its untoward side effects. But it, like Nolvadex, is just another tool.

BobWhite--I appreciate your comments. This is just what I think NOW--and will no doubt change my mind on many things in the future.

One problem with Clomid is that it is usually over dosed. Just 25mg QD is a very effective dose for antagonizing estrogen at the HP. Most users, and most scientific studies, use many times this effective dose.

[simpllyhuge]

rake is that u in your avator?