My PCT Protocol

[Nelson Montana]

SWALE: I'm sure you're excellent at what you do, but with all due respect, I believe you're being a little shortsighted on this one.

If you've been at this a while you must realize that many people do not respond well to clomid. One size does not fit all. And for every success, there is a failure. Not to mention, a lot of people THINK they have success when in fact it was just "time" that healed them.

A few other points:

I never claimed that there is anything magical to natural products, but many of them work and to deny that is illogical. To call a drug a REAL medication and to insinuate anything that isn't a drug is ineffective is not the type of statement that is in the best interest of any medical professional IMO. Remember, just a few years ago, doctors said that chiropractic is voodoo, extra protein is unnecessary, herbs are snake oil, low fat diets are best, X-rays are harmless and steroids are placebo -- all because they'd yet to understand the mechanisms involved.

To say that "there are too many doctors treating their patients this way" is frankly, one of the problems with too much of the medical community. They think, 'if that's the way they do it, it must be right'. And as you know, medical practices are constantly being proven wrong and in the case of HRT, many endos are woefully out of touch. (Not saying you are).

Also, to say an aromatase inhibitor should NEVER be used post cycle is a blanket statement not worthy of someone of your stature. You must realize that in some cases estrogen levels are extremely high PC. Now I believe anti-e's are over-used and over-dosed, and the value of estrogen is underestimated so there's no argument regarding that. But I'm sure even many of your peers would disagree with you on this one and say that anti-aromatases can have value PC.

There's still a lot we all don't know. But don't adhere to a method that is obviously flawed simply because that's what you've been taught. The brightest minds are those which are constantly on the lookout for new theories -- not just ways to confirm the old ones.

[DrJMW]

If aromatase inhibitors are properly incorporated in aromatizing cycles, the amount of free estradiol will be minimal. I see this on blood tests. Same with prolactin levels with those using DECA and dostinex. So, going into the PCT phase, estradiol levels should be fairly well suppressed. During PCT, you need to increase the estradiol levels back to normal. We all agree that estrogen is necessary for recovery and function. This is why I am not a fan of incorporating aromatase inhibitors into PCT. I am also not a fan of routine use of Clomid either. I still prefer using Nolvadex/HCG for most cases of hpta suppression.

[bleachcola]

Two experienced medical doctors against one self proclaimed guru. I can't decide who to trust.

[Nelson Montana]

Originally posted by bleachcola
Two experienced medical doctors against one self proclaimed guru. I can't decide who to trust.

This attempt at sarcasm only makes you look foolish.

First of all, the two doctors even disagree.

Secondly, we are all in agreement on some issues.

Thirdly, I never self proclaimed myself to be a guru.

And finally, I'm offering a logical perpective that based on research and experience and is open to discussion. If you have something to add to the edification of the topic, feel free to do so. Otherwise...sssh.

[bleachcola]

All I'm saying is that I prefer the advice of two liscensed medical doctors that deal with HRT on a regular basis over that of someone who says nolvadex does nothing to restore HPTA despite numerous medical studies and the anecdotal evidence of thousands of people that proves otherwise.

[Nelson Montana]

Originally posted by bleachcola
All I'm saying is that I prefer the advice of two liscensed medical doctors that deal with HRT on a regular basis over that of someone who says nolvadex does nothing to restore HPTA despite numerous medical studies and the anecdotal evidence of thousands of people that proves otherwise.

Numerous medical studies? Such as....?
There's also anecdotal evidence that Novadex kills libido, not to mention concrete evidence of it failing even to prevent gyno. What do you say about that?

There's also quite a bit of information, both anecdotal and researched that the proticol I advise is very effective. That doesn't count?

I'm sure SWALE believe in Clomid, otherwise he wouldn't sell it. And it does work for some people -- but not everyone. And there are alternatives. You can take information or you can ignore it. It's up to you.

[slim]

LOL
Nelson tell me, what is your education ?
I couldn't find it on your homepage.

[bleachcola]

There are alternatives, but why use them when we already have an effective protocol for restoring HPTA? If the medical community uses nolvadex, HCG, and (God forbid) clomid with a high success rate, why would you advise someone to use arimidex and herbal supplements? And there must be a good amount of medical research done on tamoxifen and clomiphene restoring HPTA, otherwise doctors like SWALE wouldn't be using them. I'll take the time to find these studies if you take the time to post studies that show herbal supplements (like muara puama and avena sativa) warrant any use in PCT. And don't worry -- I won't hold my breath.

[Nelson Montana]

Originally posted by bleachcola
There are alternatives, but why use them when we already have an effective protocol for restoring HPTA? If the medical community uses nolvadex, HCG, and (God forbid) clomid with a high success rate, why would you advise someone to use arimidex and herbal supplements? And there must be a good amount of medical research done on tamoxifen and clomiphene restoring HPTA, otherwise doctors like SWALE wouldn't be using them. I'll take the time to find these studies if you take the time to post studies that show herbal supplements (like muara puama and avena sativa) warrant any use in PCT. And don't worry -- I won't hold my breath.

You're not getting it, are you?

Here's where your're wrong:

One: Why use alternatives? Because they're safer,legal and better.

Two: Clomid does NOT have a good success rate. And if you're among those who don't react well to it, an alternative is a god-send.

Three: Doctors precibe lots of things they shouldn't. The over prescribing of anti-biotics has led to an immunity deficient generation and stronger strains of disease. Oops.

Four: SWALE sells Clomid.

Five: HCG does not restore HPTA. It's a temporary fix.

Six: There haven't been many studies on avena but the ones that have been done back up the overwhelming anecdotal evidence. Some of them are listed on the protein factory website. Feel free to post the clomid studies, but I'm sure they'll be the same four that every posts over and over again and they have already been proven to be flawed.

So you see, you really don't know what you're talking about. But stick around. You can learn alot.

[bleachcola]

I'm starting to get it. I am now convinced that you have some sort of stock or financial interest in Protein Factory. And now my responses:

1. 99.9% of the people on this board are using AAS illegally. So nobody really cares if they're PCT is legal or not. And as far as being better, nobody's convinced.
2. How does clomid not have a good success rate? If you go on any AAS related forum, the most popular drug for PCT is clomid. If it didn't work, nobody would be mentioning it.
3. Okay, you got me there.
4. I don't know why you mentioned this.
5. HCG might not be good at restoring HPTA on it's own, but it is excellent for restoring the testes' proper form and function (the rate limiting step in PCT).
6. I'll go check out that website.

[bleachcola]

On a lighter note, I do appreciate people like yourself. Although I don't agree with you on this subject, the medical community does need people to challenge conventional wisdom and practice. Otherwise we would never make any progress.

[SWALE]

Been away for awhile.

Nelson--even a rudimentary effort at legitimate study will show you that ALL drugs of the class SERM will increase LH production.

I do not, have not, and will not EVER make a single red cent from the sale of any medication. I provide all at my cost in order to help my patients. I also happen to prescribe Nolvadex?

An an aromatase inhibitor used without proof of elevated estrogen is indeed contraindicated for various health reasons.

Finally, as opposed to being "short sighted", I am an unconventional doctor in a field of unconventional doctors.

[gator_mclusky]

Uh oh when are we gonna hear the"order ur plant herbs from Protein Factory" for ur pct.

Its so much easier to take stock in what one says when they DONT have a financial vested interest in a product.

Respectfully,

Gator Mclusky

[J-Land_Joe]

To sum up, you would recommend the following:

HCT @ 250~500iu every week for the duration of an AAS cycle and continue it for one week after the last injection of test (for long acting esters like Enanthate I assume)

Arimidex for the duration of cycle and stop after the last test injection. (at about 1/4 mg every day?????)

Nolvadex PCT only (immediately after last injection??????) at about 20 ~ 40mgs daily (likely split into twice a day servings????) for one month.

Do I understand this right? Would appreciate answers to the ????? Thanks!

[DrJMW]

SWALE's assessment is excellent. Feedback from my clients would confirm that his recommended use of HCG throughout the AAS cycle works. It is one alternative, albeit a strong one. Using HCG/Nolvadex and sometimes clomid post-cycle is a second alternative. The second alternative is for those who do not want to do the extra injections, for the most part.

[ronmolina]

Hey Swale I am going to employ your services soon. I will do it through your site.

[CYPHON]

Great post.

[SomeBloke]

SWALE, i would like to commend you not only for taking the time to put this post together, but also for your personal stance towards working proactively with illicit aas users.

as a pharmacist i am only too aware of common perceptions within the med/pharm community in regards to aas, and the professional obstacles practitioners (and students) face in preparing themselves to deal with the issues which crop up as a direct result of aas use.

if you wouldnt mind, could you please simplify your pct drug regimen so that readers understand a little better (it is a tad confusing, just take a look at poor L-lad-Joe)

would you also care to describe just how much more efficient this pct is compared to others (how long after cessation of aas regimen do you expect that homeostasis will be reached) and also, what would be a responsible time for an aas user to wait post pct before commencing their next cycle (if they were so inclined)

cheers

[Swole1Day?]

Also SWALE, what's your opinion on Letrozole for PCT? Many have had great success using it in conjunction with Clomid? Thank you in advance...

[SWALE]

I think it is a fine drug, but I just haven't used it. I am well familiar with Arimidex, and know how to use it, so do. Hmmmm....maybe I should look into using other AI's.

However, I am against using ANY AI post-cycle. The risk of driving E too low with one of them is too great. I NEVER use it in my TRT patients without lab monitoring.

[Nelson Montana]

Originally posted by SWALE
Been away for awhile. I see Nelson is (still) up to his same nonsense.

Nelson--even a rudimentary effort at legitimate study will show you that ALL drugs of the class SERM will increase LH production. I have absolutely no idea what makes you say the things you do (other than commercial interest, of course).

I do not, have not, and will not EVER make a single red cent from the sale of any medication. I provide all at my cost in order to help my patients. I also happen to "sell" Nolvadex, so there goes that lame point you were desperately trying to make, too. Before you decide to insult me again, why don't you get your facts straight? But then, why let actual facts get in the way of your opinion? or your huge profits?

BTW, I do think you profit from the vastly inferior OTC's you promote, am I right? I do not remember you mentioning any other sources than Protein Factory. Or am I wrong about that?

An an aromatase inhibitor used without proof of elevated estrogen is indeed contraindicated for various health reasons. Learn about the effects of same, and my stature will certainly grow in your eyes. At least, it SHOULD. LOL.

Finally, as opposed to being "short sighted", the new protocols I have developed for both PCT and TRT are the most cutting edge anywhere. I am an unconventional physician in a field of unconventional physicians. Why do you think other physician specialists in these fields from around the world regularly consult with me?

Basically, your comments are nonsensical. You are MUCH worse than the doctors you are so fond of criticizing, because you are doing this just to try to make money, and seem perfectly happy to damage the health of the individuals who follow your lame advice in exchange for same. Now, be gone with you.

Be gone with me? Wow, that's lame. Too much Lord Of The Rings or something.

First of all, your comment that I am trying to make money at the expense of anyones health is a dispicable statement. Your self boasting is also unprofessional (and unfounded). Be that as it may, I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying and you seem to be dismissing things I never said so I'm not sure where you're going with all this.

I too am consulted by top people in the field but that's neither here nor there. I'm not here to fight with you. You have something to offer but you diminish your credibility when you attempt to improve yor status by belittling others, or perhaps you confused me with soem kid with a computer and no credentials. Anyway, let's try to keep an open mind so that everyone may cotribute.

And by the way, I don't believe for a second you don't profit from what you sell. Don't embarass yourself. Hey, there's no shame in making a profit if what you sell has merit. That's what I do and I freely admit it. Any fool can give free (bad) advice. You get what you pay for.

[bleachcola]

or perhaps you confused me with soem kid with a computer and no credentials

What are your credentials?

[aky]

so does this sum it up? I'd like to know as well.

Originally posted by J-Land_Joe
To sum up, you would recommend the following:

HCT @ 250~500iu every week for the duration of an AAS cycle and continue it for one week after the last injection of test (for long acting esters like Enanthate I assume)

Arimidex for the duration of cycle and stop after the last test injection. (at about 1/4 mg every day?????)

Nolvadex PCT only (immediately after last injection??????) at about 20 ~ 40mgs daily (likely split into twice a day servings????) for one month.

Do I understand this right? Would appreciate answers to the ????? Thanks!

[SomeBloke]

SWALE i would like to hear your rationale for the discontinuation of hcg one week post final aas administration. you say that the testosterone produced will hinder recovery, but i fond this to be somewhat irrational given that the testosterone produced is endogenous

it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to say that endogenously produced testosterone as a result of hcg administration is inhibitory, while endogenous testosterone produced as a result of LH agonism is not.

clearly the supplemental use of hcg is to take the place of LH in the hypo patient. obviously LH levels rise quite rapidly post aas use in any event, but i cant see too much harm coming of using hcg while this takes place- if anything, i believe that it may hasten recovery, and minimise the trough in endogenous test levels before complete reactivation occurs

i am not doubting your real world experience and success; far from it. i have referred many people to you and your site, and would reccommend that they follow your original protocol. your thoughts on this issue would be appreciated though

cheers

edit: hang on, hcg will impact upon LH normalisation. there you go

[SomeBloke]

Originally posted by J-Land_Joe
To sum up, you would recommend the following:

HCT @ 250~500iu every week for the duration of an AAS cycle and continue it for one week after the last injection of test (for long acting esters like Enanthate I assume)

Arimidex for the duration of cycle and stop after the last test injection. (at about 1/4 mg every day?????)

Nolvadex PCT only (immediately after last injection??????) at about 20 ~ 40mgs daily (likely split into twice a day servings????) for one month.

Do I understand this right? Would appreciate answers to the ????? Thanks!

hcg at 250-500 for TWO CONSECUTIVE DAYS EACH WEEK for the duration of the aas cycle- not 250-500 every week like you said

the nolvadex/clomid dosing timing is confusing, isnt it what swale means is, when your blood levels of injected steroid reaches the equivalent of 200mg/dL testosterone (200mg/dL is a very low testosterone level for a male- males usually have between 300-1200mg/dL test naturally) then you should have the nolva/clomid already in your body at therapeutic levels.

so when the hell is that, you ask

depends on the roid you are using. everyone here knows about steroid half lives and all that. if you are using a long acting agent (eg sustanon) it will take about 2.5 weeks for it to happen. if you are using test suspension, it will take a couple of days. so you have to time your use of nolva/clomid depending on the particular drug you are using at the time.

this is why it is better to use shorter acting agents at the end of your cycle- there is less guesswork involved in timing your nolva/clomid. if you are using deca, you might be off by a week or two. if you are using test suspension, you might be off by a day.

cheers