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  1. #1
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    The mean of '' benzyl benzoate ''
    beste Members,

    I was wondering, What is the mean of '' benzyl benzoate '' BB* ?,

    I see in some TEST E recipe BB and in the other not,

    So i'm wondering what is that kind of stuf?, is 't better to make it with or without it?,

    PS: Sory my Engels is not so good as well ,

  2. #2
    Amateur Bodybuilder hijacked's Avatar
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    BB is a cosolvent. Also called Benzyl Benzoate. Some compounds that suspend easily in oil do not need BB to make them suspend. However, i use BB when making my test E. I think it makes the solution more stable in a variety of temperatures. Thats just me.

  3. #3
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Hijacked is correct.

    As far as Test E, though, it can melt at room temperature on a hot day, and so, it can be done without BB from my experience. The oil can get a bit thick, but it won't crash or turn into a solid.

    Be warned though, if you use a lot of BB, it can cause injection pain. I personally don't use any BB because of this.

  4. #4
    Novice jw2031's Avatar
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    You are right . you don't need it for test-e, tren A and a few others

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    so does bb help with melting compounds, or just help make it hold

  6. #6
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bag1980 View Post
    so does bb help with melting compounds, or just help make it hold
    From what I have read, BB is a solvent, so it melts some compounds. And as the result, it will keep a solution from forming crystals aka "crashing" and make it hold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hijacked View Post
    BB is a cosolvent. Also called Benzyl Benzoate. Some compounds that suspend easily in oil do not need BB to make them suspend. However, i use BB when making my test E. I think it makes the solution more stable in a variety of temperatures. Thats just me.
    What % do you use of bb when brewing test e? 15-18%?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cross88 View Post
    What % do you use of bb when brewing test e? 15-18%?
    really test e needs no bb ,however my buddy uses 10%bb hell even in eq which is liquid at room temp, and test e melts at about 96 degrees f

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    Quote Originally Posted by bag1980 View Post
    really test e needs no bb ,however my buddy uses 10%bb hell even in eq which is liquid at room temp, and test e melts at about 96 degrees f
    Ive heard that it can be useful in test e if living in colder climates, will it do any harm using it? Will it make injections more painful?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cross88 View Post
    Ive heard that it can be useful in test e if living in colder climates, will it do any harm using it? Will it make injections more painful?
    you know thats a big debate on ba or bb causing pain, i think higher ba equals more pain but everyone is different

  11. #11
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    Helps thin it too....
    there is a big debate on carbolic acid attached to raw Test E powder from china causing the pain....I proved that there is in fact phenol (carbolic acid) on my Test E bc it is soluble in water but he hormone is not so I put it in water then drained and tested for the presence of phenol....but the process was so aggravating that its just not worth messing with....at least for me.

  12. #12
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesl0822 View Post
    Helps thin it too....
    there is a big debate on carbolic acid attached to raw Test E powder from china causing the pain....I proved that there is in fact phenol (carbolic acid) on my Test E bc it is soluble in water but he hormone is not so I put it in water then drained and tested for the presence of phenol....but the process was so aggravating that its just not worth messing with....at least for me.
    Hey James,

    When you said the process was aggravating, are you referring to the testing for the presence of phenol or the mixing of Test E with water and draining it?

    Also, was the Test E pain free after you drained it?

  13. #13
    Meathead University DrHiney's Avatar
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    Benzyl Alcohol (BA) is used to increase the lipid solubility of esterfied compounds and to prevent bacteria growth in the oil. Most UGL's use excess BA or only BA as the co-solvent, due to it's modest price. Unfortunately, it can cause the destruction of cells and significant localised pain and inflammation. The discomfort is characterised by fairly rapid onset of a painful, red, swollen area.

    The shorter an ester, the less solubility is has in oil. This necessitates higher concentrations of BA to prevent the compound from 'crashing' out of solution. When the oil is injected, the BA is absorbed from the location of the oil depot. This caused the active compound to precipitate fine crystals within the muscle. The onset of this pain is often 4-12 hours after injection and is characterised by a hard, red, swelling at the injection site. To prevent this an additional co-solvent is needed, Benzyl Benzoate. BB maintains solubility of the esterfied compound past the point at which BA has been removed, preventing crystaline precipitation. Most UGL's don't add this to their compounded oils due to the higher cost. If added at approximately 20% by volume you can prevent most associated short ester pain.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHiney View Post
    Benzyl Alcohol (BA) is used to increase the lipid solubility of esterfied compounds and to prevent bacteria growth in the oil. Most UGL's use excess BA or only BA as the co-solvent, due to it's modest price. Unfortunately, it can cause the destruction of cells and significant localised pain and inflammation. The discomfort is characterised by fairly rapid onset of a painful, red, swollen area.

    The shorter an ester, the less solubility is has in oil. This necessitates higher concentrations of BA to prevent the compound from 'crashing' out of solution. When the oil is injected, the BA is absorbed from the location of the oil depot. This caused the active compound to precipitate fine crystals within the muscle. The onset of this pain is often 4-12 hours after injection and is characterised by a hard, red, swelling at the injection site. To prevent this an additional co-solvent is needed, Benzyl Benzoate. BB maintains solubility of the esterfied compound past the point at which BA has been removed, preventing crystaline precipitation. Most UGL's don't add this to their compounded oils due to the higher cost. If added at approximately 20% by volume you can prevent most associated short ester pain.
    ok so what would be good but not excess ba ,will 2%ba be enough like you said to prevent crashing out solution

  15. #15
    Meathead University DrHiney's Avatar
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    I would recommend 20% or 25% BB and 2% BA if you are making it in around 200mg/ml. Again it depends on what dosage you are trying to accomplish.

  16. #16
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHiney View Post
    Benzyl Alcohol (BA) is used to increase the lipid solubility of esterfied compounds and to prevent bacteria growth in the oil. Most UGL's use excess BA or only BA as the co-solvent, due to it's modest price. Unfortunately, it can cause the destruction of cells and significant localised pain and inflammation. The discomfort is characterised by fairly rapid onset of a painful, red, swollen area.

    The shorter an ester, the less solubility is has in oil. This necessitates higher concentrations of BA to prevent the compound from 'crashing' out of solution. When the oil is injected, the BA is absorbed from the location of the oil depot. This caused the active compound to precipitate fine crystals within the muscle. The onset of this pain is often 4-12 hours after injection and is characterised by a hard, red, swelling at the injection site. To prevent this an additional co-solvent is needed, Benzyl Benzoate. BB maintains solubility of the esterfied compound past the point at which BA has been removed, preventing crystaline precipitation. Most UGL's don't add this to their compounded oils due to the higher cost. If added at approximately 20% by volume you can prevent most associated short ester pain.
    DrHiney,

    I agree with what you said about BA and that it can cause injection pain, because I have used UGL gears that had BA, and I experienced excruciating pain every time I use them. In addition, I have read a research article on BA and how it caused damage to muscles in rats.

    Regarding short ester forming crystal and how that might cause injection pain, I'm not too sure about that, because I have used Test Prop and Mast Prop, both of which were around 100mg/ml, had no BA/BB, and they both crystallized when the oil cooled down, and I have never had any pain with either.

    I'm not dismissing what you said as a possibility, but perhaps this might only occur at much higher dosages than 100mg/ml.

    As to using BB, I'm very cautious about using it, because of the following research articles:


    (BENZYL BENZOATE - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database)

    "Human Toxicity Excerpts:

    Benzyl benzoate is relatively nontoxic but may irritate the skin and eyes. Increased pruritus and irritation (manifested by burning and stinging, particularly of the genitalia and scalp) are common and may be severe in hot humid climates.
    [American Medical Association, Council on Drugs. AMA Drug Evaluations Annual 1994. Chicago, IL: American Medical Association, 1994., p. 1615] **PEER REVIEWED**


    Non-Human Toxicity Excerpts:
    Cats receiving 33% benzyl benzoate in isopropyl alcohol (two doses of 22,420 mg each), ethyl alcohol (two doses of 22,420 mg each), or water (three doses of 22,420 mg each) locally died at 43, 46, and 69 hr after treatment, respectively.
    [Hayes, W.J., Jr., E.R. Laws, Jr., (eds.). Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology. Volume 3. Classes of Pesticides. New York, NY: Academic Press, Inc., 1991., p. 1506] **PEER REVIEWED*

    Dermally applied benzyl benzoate was nontoxic to the pig, sheep, heifer, or horse, even after five or six daily applications, but was toxic to the cat.
    [Clayton, G. D. and F. E. Clayton (eds.). Patty's Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology: Volume 2A, 2B, 2C: Toxicology. 3rd ed. New York: John Wiley Sons, 1981-1982., p. 2308] **PEER REVIEWED**
    Last edited by Buttman3; 01-24-2013 at 06:07 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttman3 View Post
    Hey James,

    When you said the process was aggravating, are you referring to the testing for the presence of phenol or the mixing of Test E with water and draining it?

    Also, was the Test E pain free after you drained it?
    Process of removing water from the hormone was the aggravating part. Not to mention that although my water did test positive for the presence of phenol after draining it off of my Test E but not before leaving me to believe that I had removed all phenol from my Test E...the rats still got PIP. I almost never have this problem with Test E unless its over 300mg/ml. I also agree with Hiney that BB in the 20-25% range helps most PIP ....but not all.

  18. #18
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesl0822 View Post
    Process of removing water from the hormone was the aggravating part. Not to mention that although my water did test positive for the presence of phenol after draining it off of my Test E but not before leaving me to believe that I had removed all phenol from my Test E...the rats still got PIP. I almost never have this problem with Test E unless its over 300mg/ml. I also agree with Hiney that BB in the 20-25% range helps most PIP ....but not all.
    Those are some smart rats you have

    My Test E also causes pain when it's at higher concentration (around 300mg/ml).

  19. #19
    Meathead University DrHiney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttman3 View Post
    DrHiney,

    I agree with what you said about BA and that it can cause injection pain, because I have used UGL gears that had BA, and I experienced excruciating pain every time I use them. In addition, I have read a research article on BA and how it caused damage to muscles in rats.
    Just about any alcohol when injected can have an effect on tissues, especially intrathecal tissues; IPA can kill nerve endings if administered intrathecally. All pharmaceutical grade testosterone/ progesterone injections contain both BA and BB.

    Buttman3, I am not sure I understand what you may disagree with; just the PIP of a crystallized product? If so, then I agree. It is user dependent in my experience, as I have used test suspension 100mg/ml that recrystallized (first batch I only used about 15% BB) and did not really experience any pain.

    I have read this study before, actually. It is interesting info, but they are administering large amounts of high percentages of BB in animals most weighing less than 1/4 of a human. Benzoic acid (which is converted from BB and BA) can definitely be toxic, however I don't think our use of them in these compounds are cause for concern.

    Plus I think the FDA would jump all over these drug companies making these pharmaceutical injectables were there enough evidence to do so.

    Good post though!

  20. #20
    Just a rookie SmilingBob's Avatar
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    Why do the big name drug companies use up to 20% BB in their long ester injectables? Thousands of people on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) could have well over 100ml BB injected into themselves by the time the die. Is there just a lack of long term studies that show detrimental effects of BB or is it simply geared towards the end user in that more BB = smaller pins? I'm basically asking why they decided to go this route in the first place. Was it simply tradition or obvious conclusion based on animal tests?

    If these companies product has no PIP, then why might mine at the same concentration of hormone? Is it the new nemesis on the block carbolic acid (ie shitty raws)? Is it that typical HB uses 2% BA to fight sterility whereas pharma grade only needs 0.9%? It seems the theory that 20%BB=never any PIP has been squashed, but was it due to outside reasons like those mentioned above and/or higher concentrations?

    It seems to me that PIP is a hoop too many of us are jumping through when the reason it exists is right under our nose.

    I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but I love the discussion going on here. Please continue.

  21. #21
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHiney View Post
    Buttman3, I am not sure I understand what you may disagree with; just the PIP of a crystallized product? If so, then I agree. It is user dependent in my experience, as I have used test suspension 100mg/ml that recrystallized (first batch I only used about 15% BB) and did not really experience any pain.
    I was just unsure about whether or not the PIP is caused by hormone forming crystal.

    I have read this study before, actually. It is interesting info, but they are administering large amounts of high percentages of BB in animals most weighing less than 1/4 of a human. Benzoic acid (which is converted from BB and BA) can definitely be toxic, however I don't think our use of them in these compounds are cause for concern.
    You're right. The concentration of BB that they inject into these animals was higher than in what is used in human (33% compared to 20%). In addition, they injected a large amount into these animals in a short period of time.

    So as far as BB in human use is concerned, because we use a lower concentration and spread out the shots, we might not see the toxic effect right away. But I think that if we use it long term, the effects could add up over time. Thus, I would personally be really cautious and not use BB unless I really have to.

    Plus I think the FDA would jump all over these drug companies making these pharmaceutical injectables were there enough evidence to do so.
    Yes, the FDA would definitely jump all over them . But one of the potential problems when it comes to drugs that have slow cumulative effects that we cannot see right away is that it's harder to prove unless there are long-term studies - and these cost a lot of time and money.

    Therefore, unless the drugs in question is high on the priority list, I would guess that chances are, the FDA would not spend their time and money on investigating them, unless someone files a major lawsuit. And even then, the process might take years of investigation, going through all the bureaucracy and political hula hoops. By then, if there is some truths to the danger of said drugs, the consumers are already screwed .

    Cheers and thank you for an interesting conversation.

  22. #22
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmilingBob View Post
    Why do the big name drug companies use up to 20% BB in their long ester injectables?
    This is a good question. By "long ester injectables", are you referring to Test Cypionate? If so, then I think I know why they might use BB for Cyp. It prevents it from crashing or crystallizing. I haven't brew Cyp, but I have read from other posters who said that Cyp is easy to crash.

    Thousands of people on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) could have well over 100ml BB injected into themselves by the time the die. Is there just a lack of long term studies that show detrimental effects of BB or is it simply geared towards the end user in that more BB = smaller pins?

    I'm basically asking why they decided to go this route in the first place. Was it simply tradition or obvious conclusion based on animal tests?
    I really don't think potential long-term ill effects caused by drugs is a major ethical concern for the CEOs and owners of these giant pharmaceutical companies, unless it directly affects them financially and legally.

    If these companies product has no PIP, then why might mine at the same concentration of hormone?
    I have never used pharmaceutical grade Test, so I don't know if pharm grade products has no PIP, but from reading other people's posts on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) where they use prescription Test, there are PIP:

    TRT Injection Pain


    Is it the new nemesis on the block carbolic acid (ie shitty raws)? Is it that typical HB uses 2% BA to fight sterility whereas pharma grade only needs 0.9%? It seems the theory that 20%BB=never any PIP has been squashed, but was it due to outside reasons like those mentioned above and/or higher concentrations?
    There are so many factors that can cause PIP.

    BA is definitely one of the causes because it's an alcohol, and when the concentration is high, it will cause irritation and damage tissues. I believe I have seen at least one research study to confirm this, but I'm too lazy at the moment to dig up the link . (You should be able to find it with Google)

    BB is another, as I mentioned in the previous post with a research study.

    There has been speculations about carbolic acid (in Test E?) as one of the causes for PIP. While I don't know whether or not there is any truths to the carbolic acid claim, I do know that Test E at around 200mg/ml (no BA/BB) do cause pain that last for a day or so.

    Another cause for PIP is injecting a large volume of oil (1.5-2ml) into one site. I have had this happened to me, but the pain is very different from the kind of pain I got from BA/BB pain. It was a mild and dull pain. It hurt slightly when I sleep and roll on the side of the butt cheek where I injected.

    On the other hand, the pain I got from BA/BB was more of a stinging, crippling pain that I can feel it deep in the muscles and joints, accompanied by aches around the area with flu-like symptoms such as feeling weak.

    It seems to me that PIP is a hoop too many of us are jumping through when the reason it exists is right under our nose.

    I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but I love the discussion going on here. Please continue.
    So far, I have experienced only two mild cases of PIP with my brew - one was the Test E, and one was with injecting 1.5-2ml into a single spot. Overall, I get no PIP whatsoever, and I believe it has a lot to do with mine not using neither BA nor BB.

  23. #23
    Meathead University DrHiney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmilingBob View Post
    Why do the big name drug companies use up to 20% BB in their long ester injectables? Thousands of people on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) could have well over 100ml BB injected into themselves by the time the die. Is there just a lack of long term studies that show detrimental effects of BB
    Precisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmilingBob View Post
    I'm basically asking why they decided to go this route in the first place. Was it simply tradition or obvious conclusion based on animal tests?
    It was based on studies, using both what we know about chemistry and biochemistry, as well as studies done on animals. Seeing as pharmaceutical companies pioneered these formulas, they were not simply following a tradition, so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmilingBob View Post
    If these companies product has no PIP, then why might mine at the same concentration of hormone?
    Their products can cause PIP just like homebrews. However, most people just equate it to "virgin muscle syndrome" -both the muscles reaction to the damage done by the needle, as well as inflammation induced as an immune response to a foreign substance in the body-. Also the lack of anecdotal PIP for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) users, is usally due to the low dose, and low frequency of injections.

    Is it the new nemesis on the block carbolic acid (ie shitty raws)? Is it that typical HB uses 2% BA to fight sterility whereas pharma grade only needs 0.9%?
    Carbolic acid or carboxylic acid? Carbolic acid(phenol) may be responsible in these chinese raws, he only way to know would be to assay he powders. Carboxylic acid is what is combined with an alcohol to form an eser. The lower amount of BA in pharma grade is a very possible reason for lower evidence of PIP with these products. Pharma grade, unlike homebrews, are made in an ISO class 5 environment, and each batch is tested for efficacy and sterility. The lack of equipment and testing is why we always recommend a high %BA for homebrewers. However, I myself have access to a laminar flow hood as well as a convection oven, so all of my brews are sterile .
    Last edited by DrHiney; 02-11-2013 at 11:49 PM.

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    Meathead University DrHiney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttman3 View Post
    On the other hand, the pain I got from BA/BB was more of a stinging, crippling pain that I can feel it deep in the muscles and joints, accompanied by aches around the area with flu-like symptoms such as feeling weak.
    I have heard of what has been referred to as "test flu". However in all of the evidence I have found, I have yet to single out the culprit. IMO it is merely due to the body reacting to injury in the muscle and a foreign substance being introduced. The rest of the immune system may lower in order for the body to "fight" the oil you have injected and this is what leads to these fl-like symptoms.

  25. #25
    Junior Bodybuilder Buttman3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHiney View Post
    I have heard of what has been referred to as "test flu". However in all of the evidence I have found, I have yet to single out the culprit. IMO it is merely due to the body reacting to injury in the muscle and a foreign substance being introduced. The rest of the immune system may lower in order for the body to "fight" the oil you have injected and this is what leads to these fl-like symptoms.
    It's really difficult to single out the culprit since there are so many things that could potentially be the culprit .

    I have heard of people saying "virgin muscle" is one of the possible reasons for these PIPs.
    I have also heard of the Prop ester (in Test) being the possible reason.

    What I can conclude from using UGL gears is that neither are the reason.

    A few years ago, when I first started with gear for the very first time, I tried pharm grade Deca, UGL Deca, and UGL Test Prop.

    My first run was pharm grade Deca (1ml/week for 2 weeks). Had absolutely no pain. Gained over 1.35kg (3lbs) in 2 weeks. Then on the third week, I did UGL Deca (1ml). Had horrible pain with sore joints and aches. The weight gain was very similar to the pharm grade Deca.

    Therefore, my conclusion is that the "virgin muscle" or "prop" theory are not a very good ones to explian PIP, since the first time I used pharm grade Deca (virgin muscle), I had no pain. It was actually the third time when I used UGL Deca that I experienced pain.

    I also ruled out the possibility of an infection, because there was no redness or swelling.
    I also ruled out the possibility of accidentally hitting a nerve while injecting, because the pain did not come on after at least 4-5 hours after the injection. If a nerve was pinned, it should hurt immediately.

    The only possibility left I could think of that could be the cause for the PIP was that the UGL Deca might have had more BA and/or BB than the pharm grade Deca.

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