Anabolic steroids, bodybuilding discussion forums. - Steroidology

 

(Forum for members to discuss the use of anabolic steroids)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1
    Pro Bodybuilder natty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Oh so small back...i hate being sick.
    Posts
    1,817
    Rep Power
    189
    Large Dose Cycles vs Smaller Dose Cycles...which make you bigger?
    The thought of the day is this: Do larger cycles really make you the muscle bound freak you desire to be? or can smaller, better planned cycles provide the same end results ?

    I see these guys using 2 and 3g a week with 4 different drugs and I think to myself....why? why is more better? I dont think it is.

    What is everyones opinion on this... Should make for some interesting debate.

  2. #2
    Junior Bodybuilder clee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    401
    Rep Power
    12
    I could not imagine 3g a week, thatís crazy. I think small cycles (500mgs test to a gram a week) that are planned well with a good recovery program will yield better results. Your body cannot handle and maintain 25+ pounds of muscle. So you are just going to loose most of that and waste all that money you spent on that extra test, or whatever you are running.

  3. #3
    I am banned! Drveejay11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    0
    Re: Large Dose Cycles vs Smaller Dose Cycles...which make you bigger?
    Originally posted by natty
    The thought of the day is this: Do larger cycles really make you the muscle bound freak you desire to be? or can smaller, better planned cycles provide the same end results ?

    I see these guys using 2 and 3g a week with 4 different drugs and I think to myself....why? why is more better? I dont think it is.

    What is everyones opinion on this... Should make for some interesting debate.
    There are only SO MANY receptors to attach to so these bro's are in essence comitting OVERKILL (IMO).

    The BADS outweigh the GOODS when such HIGH doses are taken. Not only this, but the sides are greater, more harmful, more damaging, and more toxic....and potentially....more irreversible.

    Frankly, I think it's moronic.

    Ideally, one should try to find the MINIMUM doses required to achieve a desirable effect. Let the gear "accentuate" your work outs, NOT take over your life!!!

    I understand that as the years go by, one would increase his/her dosage by a slight margin.....but I've just seen way to many jump from 500mg TEST to 2,000 grams Test by their second cycle. It's just NOT a safe sensible practice.

  4. #4
    Community Veteran jcp2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    6,483
    Rep Power
    13
    Food and balls to the wall training make you a musclebound freak. Core exercises, heavy and hard, sufficient rest, and smart supllementation.

  5. #5
    Community Veteran house1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    apple
    Posts
    3,402
    Rep Power
    12
    [Food and balls to the wall training make you a musclebound freak. Core exercises, heavy and hard, sufficient rest, and smart supllementation]

    i agree 100 percent


    i have never been a fan of high doses. the higher the dose the more sides you WILL encounter.

    i keep test at no more than 750 mgs a week and i feel thats a bit high for me personally.

    to many guys look to the drugs to do all the work and only put a half assd effort into doing it themselves.

    they forget the drugs are only a small part of the equation.

    eating, training fucking balls to the walls and getting plenty of sleep are more of a factor imo.

  6. #6
    Pro Bodybuilder Brett_Weir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    1,373
    Rep Power
    12
    This is way to simplistic, but it is differrent for each person...........However, i would never use that much because what is your recourse when you hit the ceiling as it were?????
    Last edited by Brett_Weir; 06-06-2003 at 09:18 PM.

  7. #7
    Amateur Bodybuilder
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    561
    Rep Power
    12
    Stick to the question guys.

    Yes, if training/diet/rest are the same, you will gain more muscle on 2g of test compared to 1g. It is VERY well document that gains are largely dose dependant.

    Side effects are a whole different ball game.

  8. #8
    Pro Bodybuilder Brett_Weir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    1,373
    Rep Power
    12
    Talking
    Originally posted by jcp2
    Food and balls to the wall training make you a musclebound freak. Core exercises, heavy and hard, sufficient rest, and smart supllementation.
    Is that your inclusive list.....????? I agree but i would at at least one more thing!

  9. #9
    Community Veteran jcp2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    6,483
    Rep Power
    13
    Originally posted by Brett_Weir
    Is that your inclusive list.....????? I agree but i would at at least one more thing!
    I have been irritated by alot of things the last few days and my posts are beginning to show it. Sorry. Sometimes I think we just get way to wrapped up in drug use, when as long as you train hard, eat big, and supplement a little you are going to grow.

  10. #10
    Community Veteran jcp2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    6,483
    Rep Power
    13
    Originally posted by ready2explode
    Stick to the question guys.

    Yes, if training/diet/rest are the same, you will gain more muscle on 2g of test compared to 1g. It is VERY well document that gains are largely dose dependant.

    Side effects are a whole different ball game.
    I will get back to the question, now show me the documentation. I remember reading something about 300mg compared to 600mg, but not the doses you are talking about. But i would love to read the documentation.

  11. #11
    Pro Bodybuilder Brett_Weir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    1,373
    Rep Power
    12
    Originally posted by jcp2
    I have been irritated by alot of things the last few days and my posts are beginning to show it. Sorry. Sometimes I think we just get way to wrapped up in drug use, when as long as you train hard, eat big, and supplement a little you are going to grow.
    I feel the same way that you do.....I remember a time when diet was the way to cut and never any mention of T-3 and Clen etc.....

  12. #12
    Amateur Bodybuilder
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    561
    Rep Power
    12
    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.

    Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.

    Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. SBHASIN@UCLA.EDU

    Testosterone increases muscle mass and strength and regulates other physiological processes, but we do not know whether testosterone effects are dose dependent and whether dose requirements for maintaining various androgen-dependent processes are similar. To determine the effects of graded doses of testosterone on body composition, muscle size, strength, power, sexual and cognitive functions, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), plasma lipids, hemoglobin, and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels, 61 eugonadal men, 18-35 yr, were randomized to one of five groups to receive monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone enanthate for 20 wk. Energy and protein intakes were standardized. The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001). Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated. Sexual function, visual-spatial cognition and mood, and PSA levels did not change significantly at any dose. We conclude that changes in circulating testosterone concentrations, induced by GnRH agonist and testosterone administration, are associated with testosterone dose- and concentration-dependent changes in fat-free mass, muscle size, strength and power, fat mass, hemoglobin, HDL cholesterol, and IGF-I levels, in conformity with a single linear dose-response relationship. However, different androgen-dependent processes have different testosterone dose-response relationships.

  13. #13
    Amateur Bodybuilder
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    561
    Rep Power
    12
    Testosterone-induced increase in muscle size in healthy young men is associated with muscle fiber hypertrophy.

    Sinha-Hikim I, Artaza J, Woodhouse L, Gonzalez-Cadavid N, Singh AB, Lee MI, Storer TW, Casaburi R, Shen R, Bhasin S.

    Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059, USA.

    Administration of replacement doses of testosterone to healthy hypogonadal men and supraphysiological doses to eugonadal men increases muscle size. To determine whether testosterone-induced increase in muscle size is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy, 61 healthy men, 18-35 yr of age, received monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg testosterone enanthate (TE) for 20 wk. Thigh muscle volume was measured by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan, and muscle biopsies were obtained from vastus lateralis muscle in 39 men before and after 20 wk of combined treatment with GnRH agonist and testosterone. Administration of GnRH agonist plus TE resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 234, 289, 695, 1,344, and 2,435 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Graded doses of testosterone administration were associated with testosterone dose and concentration-dependent increase in muscle volume measured by MRI (changes in vastus lateralis volume, -4, +7, +15, +32, and +48 ml at 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively). Changes in cross-sectional areas of both type I and II fibers were dependent on testosterone dose and significantly correlated with total (r = 0.35, and 0.44, P < 0.0001 for type I and II fibers, respectively) and free (r = 0.34 and 0.35, P < 0.005) testosterone concentrations during treatment. The men receiving 300 and 600 mg of TE weekly experienced significant increases from baseline in areas of type I (baseline vs. 20 wk, 3,176 +/- 186 vs. 4,201 +/- 252 microm(2), P < 0.05 at 300-mg dose, and 3,347 +/- 253 vs. 4,984 +/- 374 microm(2), P = 0.006 at 600-mg dose) muscle fibers; the men in the 600-mg group also had significant increments in cross-sectional area of type II (4,060 +/- 401 vs. 5,526 +/- 544 microm(2), P = 0.03) fibers. The relative proportions of type I and type II fibers did not change significantly after treatment in any group. The myonuclear number per fiber increased significantly in men receiving the 300- and 600-mg doses of TE and was significantly correlated with testosterone concentration and muscle fiber cross-sectional area. In conclusion, the increases in muscle volume in healthy eugonadal men treated with graded doses of testosterone are associated with concentration-dependent increases in cross-sectional areas of both type I and type II muscle fibers and myonuclear number. We conclude that the testosterone induced increase in muscle volume is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy.

  14. #14
    Amateur Bodybuilder
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    561
    Rep Power
    12
    Comparison of the effects of high dose testosterone and 19-nortestosterone to a replacement dose of testosterone on strength and body composition in normal men.

    Friedl KE, Dettori JR, Hannan CJ Jr, Patience TH, Plymate SR.

    Exercise Physiology Division, U.S. Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, Natick, MA.

    We examined the extent to which supraphysiological doses of androgen can modify body composition and strength in normally virilized men. In doubly blind tests, 30 healthy young men received testosterone enanthate (TE) or 19-nortestosterone decanoate (ND), at 100 mg/wk or 300 mg/wk for 6 weeks. The TE-100 mg/wk group served as replacement dose comparison, maintaining pretreatment serum testosterone levels, while keeping all subjects blinded to treatment, particularly through reduction in testicular volumes. Isokinetic strength measurements were made for the biceps brachii and quadriceps femoris muscle groups before treatment and 2-3 days after the 6th injection. Small improvements were noted in all groups but the changes were highly variable; a trend to greater and more consistent strength gain occurred in the TE-300 mg/wk group. There was no change in weight for TE-100 mg/wk but an average gain of 3 kg in each of the other groups. No changes in 4 skinfold thicknesses or in estimated percent body fat were observed. Of 15 circumferences, significant increases were observed only for men receiving TE-300 mg/wk (shoulders) and ND-300 mg/wk (shoulders and chest). The data suggest that high dose androgens increase body mass and may increase strength in normal men but, except for a consistent weight gain with greater than replacement doses, the detectable changes were highly variable and relatively small, especially in comparison to the significant alterations which were observed for other markers of androgen action.

  15. #15
    Amateur Bodybuilder
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    561
    Rep Power
    12
    Originally posted by jcp2
    I will get back to the question, now show me the documentation. I remember reading something about 300mg compared to 600mg, but not the doses you are talking about. But i would love to read the documentation.
    There are 3 for ya. With a little effort, they are quite easy to find. There are a ton on the dose relationship with strength also. It makes perfect sense that more juice = more muscle. You already have testosterone in you, but you want more in you...why? because it builds muscle. Extremely obvious if you stop and think about it.

  16. #16
    Pro Bodybuilder Brett_Weir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    1,373
    Rep Power
    12
    Nice read..............

  17. #17
    Community Veteran Mudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    10,496
    Rep Power
    16
    If your getting results from moderate cycles DONT "upgrade," the only thing you'll gain is more risk of sides, wasted cashola, and from what I have heard you just end up using massive doses when you really do start to get big. I dont want to see myself on 4-5g a week to maintain.

    Supposedly that is why Franko Sanitoriello retired, I forget where I read that. Used too much early on and ended up fucking himself over.
    He who overcomes others has force; He who overcomes himself is strong. Lao-tzu

  18. #18
    Community Veteran jcp2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    6,483
    Rep Power
    13
    Originally posted by ready2explode
    There are 3 for ya. With a little effort, they are quite easy to find. There are a ton on the dose relationship with strength also. It makes perfect sense that more juice = more muscle. You already have testosterone in you, but you want more in you...why? because it builds muscle. Extremely obvious if you stop and think about it.
    Obviously you are not reading my posts, because i stated that i know fo these studies and i have read all them numerous times. What i want to see is your documentation that 1 g per week will not produce the same affects as 2 grams per week. Maybe true in some but i don't beleive for many at the level most on the boards are at. Now may i ask if i shoot 5 grams a week will i not get the same results as 10grams a week. At what point for an average guy does it not matter anymore.
    Last edited by jcp2; 06-07-2003 at 10:50 AM.

  19. #19
    Almost Natural Batman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Gotham City
    Posts
    892
    Rep Power
    12
    Thumbs up
    Originally posted by jcp2
    At what point for an average guy does it not matter anymore.
    That's the point.

  20. #20
    Novice
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    32
    Rep Power
    12
    Low doses should also promote muscle growth

    I was in India recently and I met a guy who owns a gym and trains BBs to compete. he told me his boyz only take 25mg/ml Deca, was like WTF.. when i mentioned 400mg he was like they are too scared to take that big of a dose (mind that it gets really hot there.. 47 degrees C)

    and my next cycle, I am gonma try low dose of deca and test enanthate, 200 and 250 respectively for 16 weeks, and see what the results are... previously i was gonna go with Deca 400, test en 500 and Sustanon (sust) 750 over different lengths in 16 weeks.....but I am gonn try low dosage and see it for myself

  21. #21
    Novice
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    32
    Rep Power
    12
    i wish these studies mentioned above studies results after discontinuing AS, like after 1, 3 and 6 months as how much loss in strength and muscle mass occurs of if there is any gain in fat

  22. #22
    Pro Bodybuilder Brett_Weir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    1,373
    Rep Power
    12
    Personally, i don't think you lose muscle, at least what you put on over a period of time........Some say you lose all that could be attributed to gains from the sauce.........I can think of a couple of people i know that grew from the gear and quit training for a period of time they did not lose.......I know some that took high doses and stopped suddenly and they didn't look like the same person after a month or so.....

  23. #23
    Community Veteran JohnnyB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Califas
    Posts
    9,604
    Rep Power
    13
    600mg of test is still reasonable, but at what point does the larger dose(more then 600mg) just cause side effects and not gains?

    It's obvious that larger doses cause more gains, by looking at todays BB's compared to the 60-80's, but with those gains has come side effects. Gyno be the main one, the other added drugs brought the gut. I know that's some what off topic, but those added drugs did add to the total amount of drugs being taken.

    Like Drvj11 said "there are only have so many receptors to attach to", what ever is not being accepted by those receptors, has a high possibility of conversion to an unwanted side effect. Which won't be muscle, but could add to the total weight gained.

    People may be gaining more weight off of high dose cycles, but how much of that is water and/or fat? What the out come of a cycle is, is what you keep, not what you gain.

    If you've seen the movie Colors you might remember this, I think it's a good way to look at what were trying to do.

    There's a young and a old bull, they're walking over the crest of a hill. When they look down into the valley there's a herd of cows. The young bull says to the older bull "lets run down there and f#$k us one." The old bull said "let walk down there and f$%k them all."

    The point being, go slow you'll get more out of it in the end, if you try and get it all at once it'll be short lived.

    Your doses in time will go up, the higher you start the higher you have to go and the higher the possibility of unwanted side effects.

    JohnnyB

  24. #24
    Pro Bodybuilder Brett_Weir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    1,373
    Rep Power
    12
    They were talking about smaller doses but 200mg. or less is too low......I could see making gains from that as a first timer.....With longer cycles i would think 500mg. would have to be the lower end of the spectrum, that is only a guess... I have no way of knowing because it varies so much form person to person....
    Last edited by Brett_Weir; 06-07-2003 at 02:07 PM.

  25. #25
    Pro Bodybuilder Brett_Weir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    1,373
    Rep Power
    12
    `The old bull said "let walk down there and f$%k them all."' Ecellent point.......And it is funny as hell.......A lot of truth in that....

uniquemicals
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
  1. By InPieces03 in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-10-2010, 10:19 PM
  2. By Trenimator76 in forum Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding Articles
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-03-2010, 03:08 PM
  3. By pipes in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-11-2004, 10:49 PM
  4. By Warmachine in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-19-2003, 06:07 AM
  5. By Stroyer in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-04-2003, 06:09 PM
Tags for this Thread
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  

3Js Nutrition Network

juicepump







need to build muscle



need to build muscle

3Js Nutrition Network

mr supps

solid muscle isolate 5lb





need to build muscle