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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Complete noob needs advice, deca maybe?
    Hey guys,

    Been reading for days and am overwhelmed by info.

    Need some advice with my situation.

    Stats:
    42 years old
    6'0, 175lb
    8% body fat
    Diet: pretty damn clean. No worries.
    Supplements: glucosamine/MSM/Chon, animal packs vitamins, ZMA, whey protien
    Only lift weights occasionally
    Workout 2-3 times a week.

    I have no interest in blowing up with muscle, although im not against it. Im part of a wrestling club, and thats what I do to stay in good shape. Excellent for cardio and strength in general.

    Now my issue. Im very slow to heal. Ive been tested like crazy for everything. My blood work is great. Well above average. Docs say im an athlete in solid condition. However, I yank and pull things and at 42, things heal very very slowly.

    My recovery time is crap and its driving me crazy. I can only wrestle twice a week most times because it takes all the rest of the days to recover from my 2 hour workouts. I try to do some light cardio outside of class to help me recover better, but that just pushes me over the edge into the over training zone and my body shuts down.

    Ive never considered the juice for anything until now. Not to gain mass, but after many months of cumulative damage/rundown/exhaustion, it would be nice to get a short boost of something that could help me recover faster and heal up faster so I dont have to take a ton of time off.

    I had to stop training completely for a full month last time I got so run down. Its very frustrating. I got my testosterone tested and in in the lower 1/3 of the "normal range".

    I was reading about deca and that grabbed my attention because of its joint/tendon healing properties. This was very attractive to me. Again, im not looking for mass, I just want to recover faster.

    What do you guys recommend? I want to take the lowest dosages possible and as few times a year as possible.

    What should I be looking at???

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    -- recovering-so-slow-its-driving-me-insane-ville
    Last edited by slowhealer; 01-21-2006 at 01:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Junior Bodybuilder gareth1978's Avatar
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    Firstly, welcome to the board, and congrats on the best newbie post I've ever read. Nice to see someone that gives a bit of background and states their goals for once.

    Unfortunately, I don't really have the experience in this area to give you any solid advice. But if I had to guess, I think a low dose test only cycle would be best suited to your needs, something in the region of 300mg/week. Duration, well how long do you want to feel the effects for? Just remember that the longer you're on, the more difficult recovery will be... and at your age, that could be an issue. Bodybuilders usually limit their cycles to 12wks, but this mostly because our muscle gains slow down so much after this length of time that it's better to get off and recover than stay on. For your purposes, a longer cycle may be appropriate... 20wks? I don't know. Hopefully some of the older guys that have run longer cycles can give you their take on recovery.

    Seems to me that once you come off your cycle though, you're going to have a period of time where your recovery abilities (from the wrestling) will be less than what they were before you started your cycle, and you may even be *more* prone to injury, etc. Which makes me wonder if an Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle would be worthwhile at all. If I was in your situation, given that your test levels have been tested as being quite low, I would be thinking about Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT). Seems like the best solution to your problem, IMO, and has so many more benefits.

    Anyway, hope this helps somewhat. Good luck.

  3. #3
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    Any older guys care to comment???

    What are the chances that my doc would start an Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program for me if im technically in the "normal" range? Its really amazing how wide the normal range is. I could double my testosterone and still be well within whats considered normal.

  4. #4
    Junior Bodybuilder gareth1978's Avatar
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    Yes, this normal range is a crock of shit... especially when you're at the bottom of it.

    Well you have two options, assuming you're interested in HRT...

    1. You could self administor your own HRT.
    2. Go on a short cycle to shut your body's own test production down, then go see another doctor and get yourself tested... you won't be in the normal range then.

  5. #5
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    Now thats a very interesting tactic, if all the docs totally blow me off ;-)

  6. #6
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    I'm not positive about your situation either, but there are plenty of people on here that are on HRT/TRT, so they should chime in by the end of the night. Good luck!

    And welcome to the board!

  7. #7
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    have u ever taken tribulous

  8. #8
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    Yes, for a month. No noticeable effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by shaggz
    have u ever taken tribulous

  9. #9
    B.Reel
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    i would not jump into a short cycle and shut yourself down to fool the doctor (plus, if you can get a cycle, what do you need your doc for?). there are other ways around it i.e. low libido, no energy, somnolence (drowsy), depression... you get it. Plus, it depends on your docs med philosophy. does the doc have alot of patients on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)? if not, he/she wont be so inclined to break out the script pad.

    reality check, you are 42 yrs old and wrestling for 2 hrs a couple times a week! most 25 yr olds could barely handle that. the body is not designed to take that beating over and over, especially at 42. your not an old man bro, but your not 25. good luck

  10. #10
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    I was thinking along the same lines, that its just "Age". Maybe this is just how it is when you hit your 40's. But then I noticed there are some other guys in their 40's in our club, and they come 3-4 times a week and exercise outside of class to boot!! I couldnt dream of pulling this off.

    Ive tried everything as it relates to diet, sleep, cardio, etc, but I just dont seem to recover like my better conditioned counter parts who are also around my age. I eat well, sleep well, take my supplements, and all, but im at the end of a rope right now.

    Its frustrating because it feels like Ive hit a ceiling. I want to workout more to get to the next level of conditioning, but my body just wont allow it.

    I see other 40+ year olds who recover much faster than me, and Im left wondering why. I also personally know triathletes that have far more grueling workouts than mine, who are in their 40's. How in the hell do they do it?????? I hope im just not genetically flawed with a horrible recovery time. Im guessing their testosterone levels are naturally in the high part of the normal range, thats one hypothesis, and mine are in the lowest 1/3rd.



    Quote Originally Posted by B.Reel
    i would not jump into a short cycle and shut yourself down to fool the doctor. there are other ways around it i.e. low libido, no energy, somnolence (drowsy), depression... you get it. Plus, it depends on your docs med philosophy. does the doc have alot of patients on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)? if not, he/she wont be so inclined to break out the script pad.

    reality check, you are 42 yrs old and wrestling for 2 hrs a couple times a week! most 25 yr olds could barely handle that. the body is not designed to take that beating over and over, especially at 42. your not an old man bro, but your not 25. good luck

  11. #11
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    I've never wrestled so I maybe wrong. If by recovering, you mean from being sore, I know if I take time off from lifting, a month to a year I will be sore as fuck if I jump right back into it without starting slow the first few weeks. After I get back into it I am rarely sore, and if I am it's just minor. No more than when I was 20, I'm 34 now. I think if you lifted heavy and did less cardio you might do a little better after your matches. You could do it in less time than the 2 hr workouts you are doing now.

  12. #12
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    To clarify, by recovery I mean:
    1) recovering from slight soreness
    2) recovery from fatigue/tiredness the next day
    3) healing time of minor tweaks in the ribs and various muscles


    Basically, go lift like crazy 5 days in a row and on the 6th day when you feel like the walking dead from overtraining, thats the feeling im talking about. You wake up feeling like a train wreck, drag through the day tired as hell, and cant do another workout again as soon as you want to because you know you are over trained already. Even doing some light cardio, is just too much. So you take 1,2,3 days off, taking it easy, getting as much sleep as possible, trying to heal up as fast as possible so you can go train again.

    Right now I cant work out 2 days in a row. Impossible. Other guys can. Im trying to get to that level, but am stuck.

    Im not jumping back into this. Ive been wrestling for a few years now.
    But when my body gets really beat down, I have to take a full month off in a row to get fully healed up and when I come back, my cardio is crap, and its horrible. Like starting over. Get real sore again, etc. Frustrating.

  13. #13
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    i know this may be an obvious question but what is your day to day diet like, how are you sleeping on normal nights when you havent been training. i know you say your diet is clean but are you getting in enough carbs for all the work out you are doing?

  14. #14
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    I sleep really well on all nights. On training nights I go to bed a bit later since im all wired from the workouts. But I still get a solid 8 hours. I dont force myself to sleep, it doesnt work, so I go to bed later and get up later.

    As far as diet, ill use today as an example.

    Breakfast: Giant bowl of quaker oats oatmeal with blue berries. One scoop (30grams) of whey protein with a cup of rice milk. One orange. This breakfast rarely changes.

    Lunch: Big bowl of pasta with meat sauce and bread. Greek salad with olive oil. (Other days look like my dinner, chicken is my protein core, sometimes a big fat fish burrito with cabbage)

    Dinner: 2 skinless chicken breasts. Baked potatoe (no butter, salt, plain). Pinto beans. Green beans.

    Post workout: Endurox shake. (Simple carbs with some protein). 20 mins later, another 30 gram whey protein with rice milk. 20 mins later, my dinner you see above. I eat until im about to burst on post workout nights.

    I try to snack between meals. Either my ricemilk+whey combo, or peanut butter sandwich with wheat bread, or a few hard boiled egg whites, wash down with rice milk. Some days im too busy too snack.

    I mix my lunches and dinners up, but my breakfast is the same almost every day.

    Also, on wrestling days, at 4pm, I eat a big bowl of pasta with tomatoe sauce 2 hours before working out, or another big bowl of oat meal with rice milk. Otherwise im hungry by practice time. Anything other than pasta or oatmeal (like meat), doesnt digest right in time and im queezy in practice. Besides, I need a ton of carbs to load up the glycogen stores before my matches

    I could eat more greens, but never seem to get around to it. They are also not very calorie dense and I have a hard time getting enough calories down as it is.

    I occasionally cheat and drink 1 pepsi around lunch time on some days. Typically I just try to drink lots of water all day long.

    Oh and forgot to mention this earlier. I also supplement with flax seed oil.



    Quote Originally Posted by pushthatpin
    i know this may be an obvious question but what is your day to day diet like, how are you sleeping on normal nights when you havent been training. i know you say your diet is clean but are you getting in enough carbs for all the work out you are doing?
    Last edited by slowhealer; 01-20-2006 at 03:06 AM.

  15. #15
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    Damn. well you cant fault that diet, ur taking in all the carbs you need when you need em.
    i used to be involved in martial arts for some years and also rowed 5 days a week for nearly 6 years, this had a huge impact on my joints among other things. i had messed up my shoulders so much that i souldnt lift my elbow to place it on the car window during summer time when driving.

    i got to see a specailist and got some shots in both of em, that seemed to do the trick but just afterwards i started my first course, deca and test. now it could have been the doc or the deca but that was the end of the aches and pains. i firmly believe it was the deca however, i still row although not to the competition level that i did before but instead have gotten heavily into weights. my shoulders get a regular pounding and ive gotten a little twinge now and then but thats nothing.
    maybe a cycle of test/deca might be what you need, it might help you heal and build on the base you have, help with those irritating aches and aid in your recovery. i know it worked for me..

    best of luck, let us know what you decide and keep us posted

  16. #16
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    Your experience with deca is exactly what I suspect may happen to me. Wrestling is very hard on the tendons and joints and I know deca is great for that as well as healing up in general.

    How long did you take the deca/test before you noticed results??? How long was the cycle?

    Im thinking if I tried this, it would be a 2-3 time a year thing max. Im also wondering what my chances of getting deca are legally via my doc.

    I may also try working with a professional trainer/fitness guy first too. Then I will feel like I have completely exhausted all my options. But I just dont see how anyone could help me if I tell them that I just cant work out with them because my body is too beat up, worn down, and achey all over


    Quote Originally Posted by pushthatpin
    Damn. well you cant fault that diet, ur taking in all the carbs you need when you need em.
    i used to be involved in martial arts for some years and also rowed 5 days a week for nearly 6 years, this had a huge impact on my joints among other things. i had messed up my shoulders so much that i souldnt lift my elbow to place it on the car window during summer time when driving.

    i got to see a specailist and got some shots in both of em, that seemed to do the trick but just afterwards i started my first course, deca and test. now it could have been the doc or the deca but that was the end of the aches and pains. i firmly believe it was the deca however, i still row although not to the competition level that i did before but instead have gotten heavily into weights. my shoulders get a regular pounding and ive gotten a little twinge now and then but thats nothing.
    maybe a cycle of test/deca might be what you need, it might help you heal and build on the base you have, help with those irritating aches and aid in your recovery. i know it worked for me..

    best of luck, let us know what you decide and keep us posted

  17. #17
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    From another website:

    The anabolic steroid deca has been established as a great soother of sore joints and tendons. Athletes report that sore shoulders, knees, and/or elbows are somehow without pain on the anabolic steroid deca cycle. This may be substantiated by proving it reduces the amount of cortisol getting into muscle tissue during the cycle. The anabolic steroid deca also dramatically improves nitrogen retention and recuperation time between workouts

    Damn, that sounds like a miracle cure to a guy like me!

    My hips sockets, shoulder sockets, wrists and elbow joints all ache enough to prevent me from exercising at times. I get tendonitus all over the place.

  18. #18
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    ttt

  19. #19
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    im not quite sure just how long it took for me to see the effect the deca had on the soreness in my joints, i was taking the deca and test cyp over a 10 week cycle, but i know it wasnt that long. i suppose all you can do is give it a try and see, you have tried everything else.

  20. #20
    Your Girls Pay my Bills Warmachine's Avatar
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    it doesnt really sound like you eat that much. you know what really helps me? lots of food, naps, and green tea. pasta also makes me feel like shit, try brown rice instead and yams instead of white potato. that being said, at 40 i would find a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doc and give that a try. a little test/GH may make a huge difference.

    ive never used deca but a common dose for joint pain relief is 200mg/week.
    if you are self medicating stack that with 200+ mg of test a week.

    on training...find something easy to do on off days that will keep you in condition. training twice a week its no wonder you get exhausted. try pulling a tire or weighted sled but not till failure, or light weight lifting not to failure.
    these activities get blood and joint fluid moving and improve recovery. its very important that you dont kick your ass on these activities, just take it easy the goal is recovery.
    Last edited by Warmachine; 01-21-2006 at 08:22 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmachine
    it doesnt really sound like you eat that much. you know what really helps me? lots of food, naps, and green tea.
    Im in tune with my food intake. I could eat more, but it just gets added as flab. I try to nap as much as I can, but I have a pretty hectic schedule, so my napping is inconsistent.

    on training...find something easy to do on off days that will keep you in condition. training twice a week its no wonder you get exhausted. try pulling a tire or weighted sled but not till failure, or light weight lifting not to failure. these activities get blood and joint fluid moving and improve recovery. its very important that you dont kick your ass on these activities, just take it easy the goal is recovery.
    I was thinking along the same lines. So I do some light cardio on a tread mill while holding very very light dumbells which I lift up and down and all around in all kinds of directions. I break a light sweat but its not a strenous workout, its my recovery workout. Its 20-30 mins of light cardio, and the dumbells help get the blood flowing in my arms and around all my joints. I cant tell if this is really helping, but even the 20 mins of cardio makes me really tired the next day.

    My schedule looks like this:
    tues: wrestle
    wed: 20-30 min cardio on treadmill with light weights
    thurs: wrestle
    friday 20-30min cardio again if im not wiped out, otherwise push the cardio to saturday.
    sat,sun,monday - take off, focus on healing, maybe a bike ride or something.

  22. #22
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    bump

  23. #23
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    What about HGH? Could this help my situation?

  24. #24
    Your Girls Pay my Bills Warmachine's Avatar
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    im sure might help, like i said before get a doc to prescribe it for you

  25. #25
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    I have another question about HRT.

    Do people who recieve Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) have the same side effects as people who take test for body building? Or do they typically not have these issues because the dosage is lower and your test stays within the normal range?

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