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(Forum for members to discuss the use of anabolic steroids)

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Water retention

  1. #1
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    Default Water retention
    Hey i have a couple quick question i just recently started a cycle of deca only ass. I dont like to have water retention, especially in the face. I wanna gain pure muscle, i was wondering if theres water retention supplement and a fat burning supplement in one to help lower my retention and fat in the face and all over my body. Please help me if anyone can thanks alot for your time, i do understand that i will have some retention i just want to know whats out there that could help.

  2. #2
    BigDawg
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    Quote Originally Posted by goreman84
    Hey i have a couple quick question i just recently started a cycle of deca only ass. I dont like to have water retention, especially in the face. I wanna gain pure muscle, i was wondering if theres water retention supplement and a fat burning supplement in one to help lower my retention and fat in the face and all over my body. Please help me if anyone can thanks alot for your time, i do understand that i will have some retention i just want to know whats out there that could help.
    1st bro deca only isnt the best choice it kills ur sex drive and u should add some test in there to balance it out,test should be a base in all cycles imo, u can try aremidex works great over the counter theres taxtorn or something like that but u need an anti E for the bloat and other sides ur gonna get from deca only.

  3. #3
    BigDawg
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    how many mgs are u taking and when did u start? how many cycles have u done and why did u decide on deca alone ?

  4. #4
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    Arimidex seems to have somewhat become the holy grail of anti-estrogens. Due to its limited availability, high price and extreme effectiveness, its become a much desired product on the black market. The compound anastrozole is indeed a revolution in the treatment of breast cancers. It's a new generation of aromatase blocker. Up until recently the main product for this purpose was the androgenic steroid Mesterolone (Proviron). But the problem here was that Proviron was not particularly strong and in the required doses of 50 to 100 mg per day, androgenic side-effects were not uncommon. Proviron is after all a DHT derivative. It could also never be used longer than the cycle lasted, because to some extent (despite readily being deactivated) it was suppressive of natural testosterone production. Anastrozole seems to do the job more efficiently. In clinical trials a single tab daily proved to have a profound effect. In steroid circles, mostly due to the high cost, experimentation with half and quarter tabs proved it to be almost unbelievably strong. So much, that really half a tab per day suffices for most users.

    Anastrozole operates by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the primary enzyme for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. A steroid that is altered by this enzyme is referred to as an aromatizing steroid, and such steroids can cause estrogen build-up. This has several potential side-effects such as water retention, fat gain and lets not forget gynocomastia (the growth of breast tissue in men). To prevent such effects anti-aromatase products can be used. Often times during a cycle most will want to allow for some estrogen, since it heavily promotes strength and gains as well (increases GH, upgrades the androgen receptor, improves glucose utilization). These people will generally opt for an estrogen receptor antagonist such as Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or Clomid (Clomiphene). These products do not stop the formation of estrogen, but stop the estrogen from exerting its effects by competitively taking up the receptors for this hormone. This allows them to stop any problems dead in their tracks, acting very fast, but upon discontinuation allowing for immediate influx of estrogen again as well. This has the benefit that they can be used as soon as problems arise, and discontinued when they subside, thereby only reducing estrogen-mediated gains for the time-span of the occurring problem (mostly gyno). Aromatase blockers like arimidex and proviron on the other hand are more useful for those seeking to eliminate estrogen from a cycle of aromatizable steroids all together. People who are willing to settle for slower gains, in an attempt to stay lean throughout, or for those who are truly sensitive to estrogen and do not want to take the risk of problems occurring. And arimidex is the clear weapon of choice here, at least to those who can afford it.

    Things one needs to note while using arimidex is that the benefits of estrogen become non-existent as well. First of all that means gains can be drastically reduced. They will be leaner and more qualitative, but they will nonetheless be seriously reduced. A second problem is that estrogen seems to have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. Since estrogen is reduced, the use of arimidex may have a profound impact on HDL to LDL ratio's in your cholesterol profile. In this aspect the use of Nolvadex is more user-friendly, because despite its anti-estrogenic effects in most tissues, it seems to exert positive estrogenic effects in the liver and promote a better cholesterol profile.

    Lastly, the major problem with arimidex is the cost. I've seen people who were willing to fork over 250 dollars for a 28 tablet box of legit arimidex. That's the price of fame. Of course these prices are rididculous, but most people don't really know where to look. I've found the generic anastrozole tabs for as low as 2.2 dollars per tab, which is less than half the average street price. So it all comes down to shopping around a bit. Its not that anastrozole is that expensive to make, just that its patented. Which means that besides legit arimidex, all versions in existence are generics. This also means they could be slightly off on content or impure, if trustworthy at all. So be sure to check this with someone who has tried them or had them tested before buying a generic. The liquidex sells legit for not that much more, Around 3 to 4 bucks per gram and is generally a good buy as well, although content may be off. Since few will be investing in this to mess around with low doses and will generally opt to take 1 mg a day (1/4 cc), this shouldn't be a problem. The anastrozole powder is a real buy at merely 2-3 dollars per mg, but obviously no one will ship that for less than 100 mg orders.

  5. #5
    BigDawg
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    Pharmaceutical Name: Nandrolone / Nor-testosterone (as undecanoate)
    Chemical structure: "19-Nor-4-androstene-3-one,17b-ol" or "4-Estren-17beta-ol-3-one"
    Molecular weight of base: 274.4022
    Molecular weight of ester: 172.2668 (Decanoic acid, 10 carbons)


    The decanoate ester of nandrolone is generally referred to as Deca, stemming from the brand name Deca-Durabolin under which nandrolone was marketed by the Organon company. But as the reference list up above suggests there are many generic forms of this compound available. Nandrolone is perhaps the best marketed and easy to get steroid out there and it has always enjoyed an immense popularity. Its fairly accurate to state that safe for Dianabol, Deca is by far the most used steroid. The deca/d-bol stack, it is often suggested, is where the practice of stacking comes from. But what does it owe its popularity too ? Well, nandrolone has some unique qualities that make it unlike any other steroid known to man.

    Nandrolone is more commonly known as the base steroid 19Nor-testosterone. As this structure would indicate its like testosterone in appearance but for one small change : the absence of a carbon atom in the 19th position. This gives it a number of very distinct features. First of all it makes nandrolone a notably weaker agonist of the androgen receptor. That alone causes quite a reduction in the risk of androgenic side-effects. This is because it is the only steroid that is affected by the 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) enzyme in a way that makes it even less androgenic. Unlike testosterone which forms DHT (dihydrotestosterone) at the 5AR enzyme, a hormone 3-4 times as potent as an androgen receptor stimulator, nandrolone forms DHN (dihydronandrolone) a hormone that is even less suited than the already mild parent hormone for agonizing the androgen receptor. Those two features combined make nandrolone a very safe bet for people at risk for prostate hypertrophy, acne and aggravated male pattern hair loss. At the same time its estimated that nandrolone is 2.4 times as anabolic as testosterone1, on a gram for gram basis.

    Due to the many different ways that testosterone mediates anabolism, one has to take that statement with a serious grain of salt, but it does establish nandrolone as a potent muscle builder and performance enhancer with a comparatively safe character, at least androgenically speaking. This androgenic mildness is perhaps the greatest reason for its popularity. But due to the lack of immediate anabolic activity nandrolone is rarely used alone. Its the most known and sought after product for use as a base steroid, to use in conjunction with a more androgenic specimen to enhance the results without increasing androgenic side-effects to a serious degree.

    The ways in which nandrolone exerts its anabolic effects are two-fold. First of all it's a good mediator for nitrogen retention. When nitrogen retention is high, in essence it means that the cells are taking up more nitrogen than they are releasing. Why is this a good thing though? Well every amino acid has what is known as an amino-group, which contains nitrogen. When nitrogen is retained it means there is a high concentration of amino acids in a cell, which in turn positively affects the rate of protein synthesis. Since every tissue in the body is made from protein, including muscle, this means that muscle hypertrophy is facilitated. A second factor is through estrogen. While nandrolone's rate of aromatization is considerably smaller than that of testosterone, it does convert to a particularly powerful form of estrogen┬╣. This has been noted to increase glycogen storage, growth hormone release and upgrade the androgen receptor in some tissues. In this case it also entails agonizing of aldosterone, but more on that later.

    On an interesting note, the 5-alpha-reduced versions enlighten us as to the anabolic effect of nandrolone as opposed to that of testosterone. Since nandrolone is weakened at the 5AR enzyme and testosterone becomes notably stronger at the 5AR enzyme it makes sense that testosterone would be a better anabolic mediator in tissues with a high concentration of this enzyme, and that nandrolone would be the stronger of the two in tissues with a lower count of 5AR enzyme1b. Because 5AR is not as well represented in muscle tissue it accounts for the finding that nandrolone is 2.4 times more anabolic when it comes directly to muscular hypertrophy. It also explains why its less of a risk for androgenic side-effects such as benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and androgenetic alopecia (MPB). Both the prostate and the scalp namely have high concentrations of the 5AR enzyme.

    If indeed the overall yield of estrogen is so much smaller, and so is the rate of androgen receptor stimulation, how then is nandrolone so anabolic? The common belief is through a third receptor : the progesterone receptor. It has been concluded that both nandrolone2 and several of its metabolites3,4 do indeed activate the progesterone receptor and are altered by it. On the one hand progestagenic activity decreases the estrogen receptor concentration in some tissues, it also mediates estrogenic action in other tissues5. So while estrogenic side-effects are fairly uncommon with nandrolone use alone, they can indeed occur and the implications of nandrolone's activity as a progesterone indicate these potential side-effects aren't to be solved with an aromatase inhibitor alone (like Cytadren). As long as there is estrogen in the system (indicating a possible increase of the problem when stacked with another aromatizing compound) progesterone can agonize its effects. And since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia. So while such problems are rare, when they occur they aren't easily treated.

    It makes sense then that those particularly prone to the effects and side-effects of estrogen would take extra precaution. Blocking aromatase, considering the previous paragraph, would be a poor choice, but competitively inhibiting the estrogen receptor itself with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) or tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex) might bring some relief since a large portion of progestagenic action is nullified if there is no circulating estrogen around, or if it is kept from being activated by the estrogen receptor. It is generally assumed that 1 mg of either every day for every 20 mg of nandrolone injected weekly is sufficient. Slightly higher doses, or the use of an aromatase inhibitor like cytadren can be stacked if nandrolone is used in conjunction with another aromatizing steroid. It has also been noted that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol) may provide relief as it too binds to the progesterone receptor but remains unaltered by it. How strong of a competitor it is in such a case and what sort of doses would be needed are as much your guess as they are mine, so this may be non-issue. But it does bode well for the stacking of nandrolone with stanozolol in that you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

    Another benefit of nandrolone use often reported is the pain-free workouts because nandrolone lubricates the joints. It stores a lot of water (as synovial fluid) in the joints, which eases the impact of the heavy weights handled by bodybuilders and weight lifters. One may wonder how nandrolone can do a better job at it than a steroid that aromatizes much stronger such as a testosterone ester, but its quite easily explained. One study at least goes to show that nandrolone metabolites are also aldosterone agonists6. Although we aren't entirely sure of the mechanism by which this occurs. But, while sparing you the details of this complex hormone, aldosterone has a strong function in the retention of sodium in the body. High sodium levels correlate with a high storage of water and that would explain the aforementioned effect. Of course one needs to note the implication of this of course: a bulkier frame and a certain loss of definition are not uncommon with nandrolone, perhaps more so than with testosterone.

    One last note that is of critical relevance to drug tested athletes is the interaction between nandrolone and esterase. Injectable, non 17-alpha-alkylated hormones are often esterified. This means attaching an ester to a specific position on the steroid causing it to be more lipophyllic. That means it stores well in body-fat and is only slowly released into the bloodstream, giving the whole a time-released character. The more carbons an ester has the longer it will last. For the drug to become active it needs to remove its ester. When released into the bloodstream simply the suspension in H2O will solve that. But in the body-fat the ester can also be removed by the enzyme esterase. But esterase works two ways, meaning in some cases it can also attach an ester. Nandrolone is such a case.

    Nandrolone with a decanoate ester is fairly long acting (10 carbons) to begin with and if on top of that a lot of the drug can be de- and re-esterified that means the substance stays active in the body for quite a long time. This has resulted in positive drug tests for the hormone nandrolone and many of its metabolites, most notably 19-Norandrosterone up to 18 months after last use of the drug. While this is a fairly known fact, the recent number of athletes (including well known soccer stars) that have tested positive for nandrolone would indicate a lot of misinformation or plain lack of information in some circles. Positive tests, with reprimands, that could have easily been avoided. So anyone subject to any form of athletic drug test should refrain from using 19-Nortestosterone (nandrolone) or any of its metabolites, that includes nor-prohormones.

    For those of you looking to use nandrolone as your only steroid, be aware that the gains on nandrolone are not only mild, but also quite hard to maintain. Nandrolone, in the first place due to its combined estrogenic/progestagenic properties, is quite suppressive of the natural testosterone production. Since it actively participates at three receptors its very quick and merciless when it comes to giving negative feedback to the release of gonadotropin releasing hormone from the hypothalamus. But then one also has to take into account its affinity for esterases, making it stay active in the body significantly longer than most hormones. Because that means upon cessation of nandrolone-use you'll still be under quite suppressive conditions, there simply isn't enough intrinsic anabolism available to support the mass you gained, resulting in a rather quick and inglorious reduction of weight.

    Personally, for all intents and purposes I prefer boldenone (equipoise) over nandrolone. Its also a relatively mild androgen that has no conversion at the 5AR enzyme, so its not that much more of an androgenic risk, but in all other aspects it's a much safer steroid. Doesn't have strong estrogenic effects, nor progestagenic activity. That means it doesn't cause bloat or fat gain and is much less likely to cause gyno. On the contrary, the gains from boldenone are much leaner. Its also stronger, mg for mg. It doesn't readily re-esterify and due to its lower estrogenic effects, it is not nearly as suppressive of natural testosterone either. That makes the gains not only better, qualitatively speaking, but also much easier to maintain. Also as far as purchase is concerned. Boldenone is becoming cheaper and is very widely available. The availability of Deca is dropping, but its still the most counterfeited steroid in the world. That makes it more likely that an inexperienced buyer will get scammed looking for nandrolone decanoate, than looking for boldenone undecylenate.
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  6. #6
    BigDawg
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    heres some info on the deca and aremidex that might help u

  7. #7
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    Thanks alot for your help i did pick up some novaldex. I have 30 tabs of it. Im going on to my 5th shot of 8. Should i start taking it now? Thanks alot for your help man really appreciate it

  8. #8
    mr.anabolic deadbeatrec's Avatar
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    i second the arimidex. letro will also help with water retention. and u dont want a fat face, grow a beard, it will appear thinner.

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