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  1. #1
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    Steroids and tendon strength
    Well, I'm not sure, but I might be at the end of my rope about getting on any more steroid cycles. I started this cycle

    -500mg test c or e/week (12 weeks total)
    -350mg tren e/week (12 weeks total)
    -0.5-1mg arimidex, ED (12 weeks total)

    about ~5 weeks ago and was doing well on it; it was just starting to hit its stride.

    It seemed to feel, however, that in certain spots (like my tendons), like something was amiss though. I didn't pay much attention to it, as I was feeling really good otherwise and thought it was insignificant.

    Well, on Friday, I ruptured my achilles tendon in my right leg. What makes this interesting is that ~10 years ago, in the middle of a cycle, I ruptured my quad tendon.

    I've heard/read that the tendons become, "woody" and that a common issue from a steroid cycle is that tendons can seemingly lose elasticity/strength when on a cycle.

    Is this correct?

    Or, am I just unlucky?

    I'm beginning to believe the former and am so disappointed right now, I can barely even keep my head up. I will though, but it isn't easy...

    HGH to improve tendon strength?
    Last edited by Lunaticfringe; 05-06-2012 at 06:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Infantryman! TryinToGetStrong's Avatar
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    From my understanding, the only thing with tendon strength problems is when you're on a large cycle for an extended period. When this happens your muscles grow too fast and other things cannot keep up.

    I think your situation is just bad luck.

  3. #3
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    Yeah I'd say bad luck. If you have spent a few years in the gym prior to AAS use, you should have strong tendons. Winstrol (winny) is know to make tendons thick but brittle.

    Try some deca, anavar, primo, or eq.

  4. #4
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    Using 1mg Adex every day did not help your situation, It will make your joints/tendons hurt. I would do .25 e3 days to start.

  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    adex dries my joints in as little as 2 days. I then had joint pain for a week just from those 2mgs. I have to take uber small doses of the stuff and only once a week so I dont get total joint pain

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullishness View Post
    Using 1mg Adex every day did not help your situation, It will make your joints/tendons hurt. I would do .25 e3 days to start.
    Fu*k...I wish I would have known. Might it have been what helped cause the failure?

    Nothing is worse than being seriously injured; I'm pretty much done until I get surgery. I'm trying to figure out how I can navigate the gym with this injury, but it isn't easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by josh223 View Post
    read this article its an amazing read

    steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/143212-increase-skeletal-muscle-collagen-synthesis-certain-aas.html
    Thanks, that was a good read.

    The only bad thing is that now I'm even more pi$$ed at myself, for I should have incorporated deca into my cycle from minute one...

  8. #8
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    arimidex fuks my tendons at 0,5 mg e3d

  9. #9
    Amateur Bodybuilder Jack Tors's Avatar
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    ALL (including Deca) steroid use weakens tendons but you have to be a "heavy" AAS user (pro-bodybuilders). Its a def. possible correlation but i dont know your cycle history or your predisposition to injury. HGH is the exception IMO or the peptide GHRP etc. I would consider running HGH instead or with test.
    Last edited by Jack Tors; 05-07-2012 at 05:46 PM.

  10. #10
    Amateur Bodybuilder Jack Tors's Avatar
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    You can also find the below article in the December 2011 issue of Muscular Development on pages 198-200.

    DECA-DURABOLIN Weakens Tendons and Collagen

    If you are not visiting musculardevelopment.com on a daily basis, you are not getting breaking news and up-to-the-minute information. In a recent thread started in the NO BULL forums a person wrote, ***8220;How come people don***8217;t train like Ronnie anymore?***8221; The thread talked about the change in the training style of all the bodybuilders to more high-volume training and less high-intensity training. With the exception of Branch Warren, there are not many pros who are training with high intensity. It may be because today***8217;s bodybuilders don***8217;t want to risk injury. Here is a list of some of the top bodybuilders who have suffered major injuries or tears during their training careers, off the top of my head:

    Dorian Yates: tricep/bicep
    Kevin Levrone: pec
    Rich Gaspari: pec
    Ronnie Coleman: tricep
    Berry de May: pec
    Chris Dickerson: pec
    Tom Platz: bicep
    Branch Warren: tricep/quad tendon

    Is it just a coincidence that bodybuilders are more likely to suffer injuries because of heavy training, or does the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) have any impact on tendon/collagen strength? The research is very preliminary, as only a few studies have examined the effects of AAS on tendon and collagen strength. It was shown that anabolic steroids alter the biomechanical properties of tendons and reduce tendon flexibility.(1,2,3)

    Some interesting theories have been suggested as why heavy anabolic steroid use can cause tendon injury, which is based around cortisol production and AAS. Researches have demonstrated that AAS combined with tension overload reduced MMP2 activity (MMP2 is a gene responsible for collagen production) and increased serum values of cortisol.(4) During cortisol treatment, the serum levels of genes responsible for collagen production decrease, suggesting that cortisol suppresses the synthesis of collagen production.(5) The reduction in genes for collagen and tendons have been speculated as to why AAS makes bodybuilders susceptible to injuries. New research links the use of high doses of anabolic steroids to tendon and collagen dysfunction, which may make a bodybuilder think twice about training heavily while using anabolics.

    GENE EXPRESSION IN TENDONS/COLLAGEN AFTER HEAVY AAS USE

    Researchers in the European Journal of Applied Physiology examined how heavy use of the anabolic steroid Deca-Durabolin affected collagen strength in rats. The rats were separated into two groups: natural training and training with heavy anabolic steroid use. The dose the researchers administered to the rats was considered supra-physiological ***8211; Deca-Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate) 5mg/kg of bodyweight.

    The rats were cleverly forced to perform resistance exercise, but you can***8217;t just tell a rat to start benching ***8211; so the researchers attached weights to the rats***8217; backs. They dropped the rats into a tank of water and the rats immediately jumped out of the water as soon as they were dunked. Every week, the researchers gradually made the weight on the rats***8217; backs heavier and heavier until at the end of seven weeks the weight was 80 percent of their bodyweight. The researchers dropped the rats in the tank so that they performed this for 4 sets x 10 repetitions of ***8220;jumps***8221; with 30-second rest periods. After that, they rats were sacrificed and the rats***8217; tendons and collagen were examined for gene expression.

    There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats. The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties of genes involving tendon and collagen strength.

    It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases collagen expression when considering the possible connection between IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).

    The above study is similar to another recently published study, which showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits. In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an impaired healing response.(7)

    The key point is that many of these studies were using supraphysiological dosages of steroids that could be like the typical Olympia stack ***8211; but the new research suggests that a high-volume approach to training with less weight may be a better approach to use for a bodybuilder than a high-intensity, heavy weight program that puts more stress on the tendons and makes them more susceptible to injury.

    By Robbie Durand, M.A., Senior Science Editor of Muscular Development


    References:

    1. Evans NA, Bowrey DJ, Newman GR (1998) Ultrastructural analysis of ruptured tendon from anabolic steroid users. Injury, 29:769-773.
    2: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Paschoal M, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2008) Matrix metallopeptidase 2 activity in tendon regions: effects of mechanical loading exercise associated to anabolic-androgenic steroids, Eur J Appl Physiol, 104:1087-1093.
    3: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Wang CC, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Nakagaki WR, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2010). Biomechanical responses of different rat tendons to nandrolone decanoate and load exercise. Scand J Med Sci Sports, 29.
    4: Marqueti RC, Parizotto NA, Chriguer RS, Perez SEA, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2006) Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with mechanical loading inhibit matrix metallopeptidase activity and affect the remodeling of the Achilles tendon in rats. Am J Sport Med, 34:1274-1280.
    5: Oikarinen A, Autio P, Vuori J, Va®a®na®nen K, Risteli L, Kiistala U, Risteli J (1992) Systemic glucocorticoid treatment decreases serum concentrations of carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen and aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen. Br J Dermatol, 126:172-178.
    6: Marqueti RC, Heinemeier KM, Durigan JL, de Andrade Perez SE, Schjerling P, Kjaer M, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS. Erratum to: Gene expression in distinct regions of rat tendons in response to jump training combined with anabolic androgenic steroid administration. Eur J Appl Physiol, 2011 Sep 8.
    7: Papaspiliopoulos A, Papaparaskeva K, Papadopoulou E, Feroussis J, Papalois A, Zoubos A. The effect of local use of nandrolone decanoate on rotator cuff repair in rabbits. J Invest Surg, 2010 Aug;23(4):204-7.
    8: Heinemeier KM, Olesen JL, Schjerling P, Hassad F, Langberg H, Baldwin KM, Kjaer M (2007b) Short-term strength training and the expression of myostatin and IGF-1 isoforms in rat muscle and tendon: differential effects of specific contraction types. J Appl Physiol, 102:573-581.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tors View Post
    ALL (including Deca) steroid use weakens tendons but you have to be a "heavy" AAS user (pro-bodybuilders). Its a def. possible correlation but i dont know your cycle history or your predisposition to injury. HGH is the exception IMO or the peptide GHRP etc. I would consider running HGH instead or with test.
    Thanks.

    It sounds to me like HGH should be in any cycle I ever consider doing then.

    Is that reasonable???

  12. #12
    Amateur Bodybuilder Jack Tors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe View Post
    Thanks.

    It sounds to me like HGH should be in any cycle I ever consider doing then.

    Is that reasonable???
    if i were you i'd run ghrp6 and igf-lr3 off cycle.

    you run a cycle w gh for 6month to a year commitment that would be better but its hard to find legit gh and its $$
    Last edited by Jack Tors; 05-07-2012 at 09:55 PM.

  13. #13
    Amateur Bodybuilder Jack Tors's Avatar
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    just curious how do you train? heavy weight low reps (5-8)? or 10-12 range?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tors View Post
    if i were you i'd run ghrp6 and igf-lr3 off cycle.

    you run a cycle w gh for 6month to a year commitment that would be better but its hard to find legit gh and its $$
    Yeah, GH is pretty expensive; I'm looking into it right now, but money is no object at this point if it means I can heal up and get in the ballpark of the results I want.

    Basically, if I'm reading this right, both here and elsewhere, it's generally accepted that GH will strenthen the sh*t out of my tendons, yes? If so, game on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tors View Post
    just curious how do you train? heavy weight low reps (5-8)? or 10-12 range?
    In general, once warmed up, I pyramid up to about 4-6 reps, so, overall, I'd say heavy, which I thought was good for tendon strength.

  15. #15
    Amateur Bodybuilder zephyr_987's Avatar
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    try adequan, from what ive read on here and a few other places it strengthens ligaments & tendons.. its not a steroid so no need for pct. it is used to treat degenerative arthritis in dogs & horses & used regularly in race horses. heard of a few people using it w/ great sucess. i wanna use it to rehab my knee injuries but i cant seem to find any . i would also use igf1-Lr3 & hgh along w/ all the natural joint supps u can find. tendon/ ligamant tears are the absolute worst injuries, i would never wanna go thru this again later in life.

  16. #16
    Amateur Bodybuilder Jack Tors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe View Post
    In general, once warmed up, I pyramid up to about 4-6 reps, so, overall, I'd say heavy, which I thought was good for tendon strength.
    IMO this may be a big part of it. do you warm up first? the problem with the 4-6 range even a pyrimid is your training the joint not the muscle. low volume training weakens the joint and tendons (lots of studies out there)

    if your not a powerlifter do a 10-12 range slow and controlled (especially with the injuries you've had) get blood into the muscle and it will grow. this method actually strengthens the joint and tendon over time. are you bodybuilding or powerlifting? the biggest guys in the often arent the strongest. once in a while go heavy (1 x every couple of months).

    I was a competitive powerlifter for years and played Div. I hockey and football. i did a lot of 5 x 5 routines. i gotta tell you its an injury waiting to happen. Injury prevention has been a big part of the way I train now but i had learn the hard way aswell.


    it sucks but be smart from here on out and you couuld def run a cycle again even without GH but if you can get it go for it...GHRP has made a lot of aches go away just sayin
    Last edited by Jack Tors; 05-08-2012 at 05:08 PM.

  17. #17
    Amateur Bodybuilder Jack Tors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephyr_987 View Post
    try adequan, from what ive read on here and a few other places it strengthens ligaments & tendons.. .
    a lot of guys use this but its for your dog so you have to get it at vet or pet store and of coarse online...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tors View Post
    IMO this may be a big part of it. do you warm up first?
    I injured myself not in the gym, but on the football field. I was definitely warmed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tors View Post
    if your not a powerlifter do a 10-12 range slow and controlled (especially with the injuries you've had) get blood into the muscle and it will grow. this method actually strengthens the joint and tendon over time. are you bodybuilding or powerlifting? the biggest guys in the often arent the strongest. once in a while go heavy (1 x every couple of months).
    Yeah, I'm going to start moving in this direction. I've been lifting heavy for many, many years, so it's probably time to lighten it up and do more reps regardless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tors View Post
    it sucks but be smart from here on out and you couuld def run a cycle again even without GH but if you can get it go for it...GHRP has made a lot of aches go away just sayin
    I hear ya and many thanks for your thoughts. Just to be safe, I'm thinking I will run HGH at the same time, as well as lighten the weight and do more reps.

    Now I just want to look good (which I don't, but I was making solid progress). I'm not too worried about moving 400 lbs bench presses anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tors View Post
    a lot of guys use this but its for your dog so you have to get it at vet or pet store and of coarse online...
    Is this stuff worth it? Even with HGH?

  19. #19
    Amateur Bodybuilder zephyr_987's Avatar
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    Is this stuff worth it? Even with HGH?[/QUOTE]

    i heard of guys running it after cycle like pct. so that way u also know how the HGH is workin & makin you feel... i personally have yet to find a source online without prescription so good luck finding some.

  20. #20
    Amateur Bodybuilder Jack Tors's Avatar
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    in your case I wouldnt bother with the adequan b/c you dont have a joint issue more with tendons. its basically glucossimin condritin msm for animals. i know guys that take it but im leary on what sides it may have being its for dogs.

    just to give you an idea of what i do...
    deads 315 x 10, 415 x 10, 500 x 10 instead of 315 x 5, 405 x5, 500 x 3, 550 x 3, 600 x3, 650 x 3695 x 1

    squat 145 x 20, 225 x 20, 315 x 20 instead of 600 x3
    bench 225 x 20, 285 x 10, 315 x 10 instead of 405 x 2

    you get the idea... you dont have to lift like a bitch but feel the w8t get a good pump dont worry so much about numbers and goals. if you get 285 for 10 try for 12 next week instead of jumping up to 315 x 4 you will get a lot bigger this way

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