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  1. #26
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
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    Interesting theory. Thank you.


    Previous to the blue tops I only ran GH from a US compounding pharmacy. That was several years ago. So after about a 2 year break I started up the Blue tops in November and ran maybe 2 1/2 months. I then got fake kits so I was off GH for maybe a month. Now its been 2 1/2 months back on. During this time every test has come back lower than normal including my last labs that were US Tev-Tropin. However. My last labs were the highest I ever measured so my response was greatest with the US pharm grade after the longest duration on GH. Seems like this would shoot down the possibility of me being in the anti-body group?

    Here are my results in order of when I did them. The first result was early March then the others followed.

    heavyiron (250 lbs) 3/12 10iu Z Blue Top rhGH at 3 hours 11 minutes~15.5ng/mL

    heavyiron (250 lbs) 3/12 10iu Z Blue Tops rhGH at 3 hours 20 minutes~17.9ng/mL

    heavyiron (250 lbs) 4/12-10 iu US pharmacy Tev-Tropin rhGH IM at 2 hours 41 minutes~19.7 ng/mL
    All posts are for entertainment and may contain fiction. Consult a doctor before using any medications. Heavyiron does not advocate readers engage in any illegal activity.

  2. #27
    Amateur Bodybuilder dfeaton's Avatar
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    Im not sure I understand why it would be important for him to test the 10iu instead of the 5iu. If he is comparing the 5iu of UGL to the 5iu of pharm grade. Wouldn't this give you enough info to know how close to pharm grade the UGL is?

  3. #28
    Olympian Bodybuilder crazyfmike's Avatar
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    Seems Vannesb has to make everything about him. Very small man syndrome.

  4. #29
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    Somebody tested 34.3 on Rips, seems like Rips is at the top of the list at the moment.

  5. #30
    Community Veteran Zeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amore169 View Post
    Somebody tested 34.3 on Rips, seems like Rips is at the top of the list at the moment.
    Where is this 34.3 test posted at? plz hit me with a PM since I am gathering every test done in the last 6 months.

    To answer your question heavy, I think even usa pharm grade a certain % of ppl do indeed develop anntibodies. I would check the manufacturer website, that percentage is usually listed there.

  6. #31
    Getting Ripped!! dy595959's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike for the Tests! Regardless of how many iu's it shows what increases from baseline for each different brand.

    I have ordered Z's and will test soon. My bro in law has Rips and will test in a month and I will post.

    Thanks again Man

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfmike View Post
    As many guys know I have 5 Growth Hormone (serum) Tests under my belt now. All tests were 5iu's, SubQ 1.5-3.0hrs post injection, empty stomach.

    My first two tests proved 100% Bunk HGH, but I did establish my baseline of 0.1 and 0.2 respectively.

    Serostim tested 8.7

    Riptropin tested 10.4

    I hope this helps you guys having first hand unbiased results. Kigtropin is next and then Elitropins.

  7. #32
    Moderator juced_porkchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfmike View Post
    As many guys know I have 5 Growth Hormone (serum) Tests under my belt now. All tests were 5iu's, SubQ 1.5-3.0hrs post injection, empty stomach.

    My first two tests proved 100% Bunk HGH, but I did establish my baseline of 0.1 and 0.2 respectively.

    Serostim tested 8.7

    Riptropin tested 10.4

    I hope this helps you guys having first hand unbiased results. Kigtropin is next and then Elitropins.
    Great feedback! thanx.
    I am looking at Kigtropin possibly, I would LOVE to see you're feedback!

  8. #33
    Amateur Bodybuilder
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    It's always good to see guys pubically posting their results, especially with stuff like GH. This site does a great service to the BB'ing community by allowing us to openly talk about this stuff.

    Thanks, Mike.

  9. #34
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek View Post
    To answer your question heavy, I think even usa pharm grade a certain % of ppl do indeed develop anntibodies. I would check the manufacturer website, that percentage is usually listed there.
    Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol. 2004 Jan-Apr;17(1):33-8.
    Growth hormone antibodies formation in patients treated with recombinant human growth hormone.
    Ahangari G, Ostadali MR, Rabani A, Rashidian J, Sanati MH, Zarindast MR.
    Source

    Department of Molecular Medicine and Immunology, National Research Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, Tehran, Iran. ghah@nrcgeb.ac.ir
    Abstract

    Human growth hormone (hGH) is normally produced by acidophilic cells of the anterior lobe of the pituitary gland. Recombinant DNA technology has made it possible to produce rhGH. There have been reports of immunological reactions in patients treated with rhGH. For this reason, it is necessary to check sera of patients for presence of antibody against rhGH. Forty-seven children were treated for up to 6 months with recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH-Novo), 0.1 IU/Kg body weight, subcutaneously, three times weekly. The magnitude of growth response was similar to those expected from clinical experience with pituitary growth hormone. We examined sera for specific antibodies against rhGH by ELISA methods. Four patients developed serum antibodies against growth hormone. The analysis of these four sera by Dot blotting method also showed presence of antibodies against rhGH. In the sera of treated patients, pre-incubated with different concentration of rhGH, specific antibodies were detected by neutralizing assay. This finding was confirmed by ELISA technique. In conclusion, the main concern with anti-GH antibodies could be their ability to neutralize circulating growth hormone and inhibition its growth promoting effect.

    PMID:
    15000864
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    All posts are for entertainment and may contain fiction. Consult a doctor before using any medications. Heavyiron does not advocate readers engage in any illegal activity.

  10. #35
    Community Veteran Zeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juced_porkchop View Post
    Great feedback! thanx.
    I am looking at Kigtropin possibly, I would LOVE to see you're feedback!
    avoid kigs like the plague right now, tests all over including the recent batches are proving it to be complete shit! Just saw a new test this morning 2.8 on 10iu injected! and these the new kigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol. 2004 Jan-Apr;17(1):33-8.
    Growth hormone antibodies formation in patients treated with recombinant human growth hormone.
    Ahangari G, Ostadali MR, Rabani A, Rashidian J, Sanati MH, Zarindast MR.
    Source

    Department of Molecular Medicine and Immunology, National Research Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, Tehran, Iran. ghah@nrcgeb.ac.ir
    Abstract

    Human growth hormone (hGH) is normally produced by acidophilic cells of the anterior lobe of the pituitary gland. Recombinant DNA technology has made it possible to produce rhGH. There have been reports of immunological reactions in patients treated with rhGH. For this reason, it is necessary to check sera of patients for presence of antibody against rhGH. Forty-seven children were treated for up to 6 months with recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH-Novo), 0.1 IU/Kg body weight, subcutaneously, three times weekly. The magnitude of growth response was similar to those expected from clinical experience with pituitary growth hormone. We examined sera for specific antibodies against rhGH by ELISA methods. Four patients developed serum antibodies against growth hormone. The analysis of these four sera by Dot blotting method also showed presence of antibodies against rhGH. In the sera of treated patients, pre-incubated with different concentration of rhGH, specific antibodies were detected by neutralizing assay. This finding was confirmed by ELISA technique. In conclusion, the main concern with anti-GH antibodies could be their ability to neutralize circulating growth hormone and inhibition its growth promoting effect.

    PMID:
    15000864
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    very interesting, 4 out of 47 developed the atibodies and it affects both their natty gh and the rhgh.

    Could this be what is happening to some of our testers across the boards?

  11. #36
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek View Post
    very interesting, 4 out of 47 developed the atibodies and it affects both their natty gh and the rhgh.

    Could this be what is happening to some of our testers across the boards?
    I imagine this is playing a role. I will have to research further though.
    All posts are for entertainment and may contain fiction. Consult a doctor before using any medications. Heavyiron does not advocate readers engage in any illegal activity.

  12. #37
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    Hard2gain how dare you doubt me lol. Jk. You and ZEEK make very good points. Actually now that I think about it my buddy has been going crazy trying to figure this out because of constant low igf and gh serum and he spent a lot of cash to run 10 iu a day of US pharma grade for a month and still tested low so I'm guessing maybe he's a low responder as well.

    Either way good work but I'm still going to try and convince myself that I know everything lol.

  13. #38
    Community Veteran Zeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UserAt204 View Post
    Hard2gain how dare you doubt me lol. Jk. You and ZEEK make very good points. Actually now that I think about it my buddy has been going crazy trying to figure this out because of constant low igf and gh serum and he spent a lot of cash to run 10 iu a day of US pharma grade for a month and still tested low so I'm guessing maybe he's a low responder as well.

    Either way good work but I'm still going to try and convince myself that I know everything lol.
    LOL you are still right 99.9% of the time so still a good average brother!

  14. #39
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    finally....results lol

  15. #40
    Olympian Bodybuilder crazyfmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UserAt204 View Post
    Hard2gain how dare you doubt me lol. Jk. You and ZEEK make very good points. Actually now that I think about it my buddy has been going crazy trying to figure this out because of constant low igf and gh serum and he spent a lot of cash to run 10 iu a day of US pharma grade for a month and still tested low so I'm guessing maybe he's a low responder as well.

    Either way good work but I'm still going to try and convince myself that I know everything lol.
    Did your buddy get gains from that heavy GH cycle?

  16. #41
    Motivated DaHurt's Avatar
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    Excellent Mike. Your testing methods are fine so long as you remain consistent, which you have. The comparisons are true comparisons between brands and that is invaluable.

    I'm also quite happy I have riptropin from the same source

    I'll be testing serum this week and posting my results!

  17. #42
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    Mike I'll talk to him about it some more. The thing is, I believe rips were the only thing to give him cts, and he has tried a lot especially lately. I know something is working for him, he's very tall like 6'5 or so and ripped so something is doing the trick.

    I'll talk to him and see what if any changes have been made.

  18. #43
    BfB
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfmike View Post
    All tests were 5iu's, SubQ 1.5-3.0hrs post injection, empty stomach.

    Serostim tested 8.7

    Riptropin tested 10.4
    Thanks for your work, Mike! It's greatly appreciated. If you don't mind, could you please let us know, and forgive me if this has already been answered, what your time after injection for testing was for the Seros and also the Rips?

    And curious, any particular reason you decided to test SQ vs IM? Doesn't matter, but I love data!

  19. #44
    Motivated DaHurt's Avatar
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    Sorry guys I know I said I'd have my bloods up some time this week for the rips as well, but I've been swamped every morning.

    I can at least report that my hands are incredibly swollen, tingling all day long, and my dreams are disturbingly lucid off of 4 iu/day. I'm also extremely hungry all the time, which is nice going into PCT.

    I know sides mean squat, but at least I can report that until I test, which I am still going to do!

  20. #45
    BfB
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol. 2004 Jan-Apr;17(1):33-8.
    Growth hormone antibodies formation in patients treated with recombinant human growth hormone.
    Here's another study that references the one heavyiron listed:

    proteomesci.com/content/3/1/1

    Mass spectrometrical analysis of recombinant human growth hormone (Genotropin®) reveals amino acid substitutions in 2% of the expressed protein

    Abstract

    Background
    The structural integrity of recombinant proteins is of critical importance to their application as clinical treatments. Recombinant growth hormone preparations have been examined by several methodologies. In this study recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH; Genotropin®), expressed in E. coli K12, was structurally analyzed by two-dimensional gel electrophoresis and MALDI-TOF-TOF, LC-MS and LC-MS/ MS sequencing of the resolved peptides.

    Results
    Electrospray LC-MS analysis revealed one major protein with an average molecular mass of 22126.8 Da and some additional minor components. Electrospray LC-MS/MS evaluation of the enzymatically digested Genotropin® sample resulted in the identification of amino acid substitutions at the residues M14, M125, and M170; di-methylation of K70 (or exchange to arginine); deamidation of N149, and N152, and oxidation of M140, M125 and M170. Peak area comparison of the modified and parental peptides indicates that these changes were present in ~2% of the recombinant preparation.

    Conclusion
    Modifications of the recombinant human growth hormone may lead to structural or conformational changes, modification of antigenicity and development of antibody formation in treated subjects. Amino acid exchanges may be caused by differences between human and E. coli codon usage and/or unknown copy editing mechanisms. While deamidation and oxidation can be assigned to processing events, the mechanism for possible di-methylation of K70 remains unclear.


    And here's the information about how Genotropin may actually reverse the antibody issue:

    labeling.pfizer.com/ShowLabeling.aspx?id=577

    Anti-hGH Antibodies

    As with all therapeutic proteins, there is potential for immunogenicity. The detection of antibody formation is highly dependent on the sensitivity and specificity of the assay. Additionally, the observed incidence of antibody (including neutralizing antibody) positivity in an assay may be influenced by several factors including assay methodology, sample handling, timing of sample collection, concomitant medications, and underlying disease. For these reasons, comparison of the incidence of antibodies to GENOTROPIN with the incidence of antibodies to other products may be misleading. In the case of growth hormone, antibodies with binding capacities lower than 2 mg/mL have not been associated with growth attenuation. In a very small number of patients treated with somatropin, when binding capacity was greater than 2 mg/mL, interference with the growth response was observed.

    In 419 pediatric patients evaluated in clinical studies with GENOTROPIN lyophilized powder, 244 had been treated previously with GENOTROPIN or other growth hormone preparations and 175 had received no previous growth hormone therapy. Antibodies to growth hormone (anti-hGH antibodies) were present in six previously treated patients at baseline. Three of the six became negative for anti-hGH antibodies during 6 to 12 months of treatment with GENOTROPIN. Of the remaining 413 patients, eight (1.9%) developed detectable anti-hGH antibodies during treatment with GENOTROPIN; none had an antibody binding capacity > 2 mg/L. There was no evidence that the growth response to GENOTROPIN was affected in these antibody-positive patients.


    I want to add the paragraph from that article I just posted that cites the article heavyiron posted. It potentially appears the article he posted may have been based upon rHGH that had structural integrity issues, and that ultimately led to the antibody response in the patients it cited. See here:

    Background
    The structural integrity of recombinant products generated by prokaryotic and eukaryotic organisms is a major concern. Modifications such as amino acid sequence substitution/mutations of recombinant proteins may lead to pharmacological inactivation, autoimmune phenomena [1-3] and adverse effects [4,5].

    References
    1: Ahangari G, Ostadali MR, Rabani A, Rashidian J, Sanati MH, Zarindast MR: Growth hormone antibodies formation in patients treated with recombinant human growth hormone.
    Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol 2004, 17:33-38.

    2: Takano K, Shizume K: Current clinical trials with authentic recombinant human growth hormone in Japan.
    Acta paediatr Scand Suppl 1986, 93-97.

    3: Massa G, Vanderschueren-Lodeweyckx M, Buillon R: Five-year follow-up of growth hormone antibodies in growth hormone deficient children treated with recombinant human growth hormone.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1993, 38:137-142.

    4: Cutfield WS, Jackson WE, Jefferies C, Robinson EM, Breier BH, Richards GE, Hofman PL: Reduced insulin sensitivity during growth hormone therapy for short children born small for gestational age.
    J Pediatr 2003, 142:113-116.

    5: Sugimoto S, Hanaki K, Kawashima Y, Kinoshita T, Nagaishi J, Hayashi A, Kanzaki S: Aplastic anemia during growth hormone (GH) treatment in a girl with idiopathic GH-deficiency.
    Endocr J 2003, 50:469-471.


    Further reading:

    Protropin (Somatrem, 192aa) literature stated:

    As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. Growth hormone antibody binding capacities below 2 mg/L have not been associated with growth attenuation. In some cases when binding capacity exceeds 2 mg/L, growth attenuation has been observed. In clinical studies and postmarketing experience of patients treated with Protropin® (somatrem for injection), approximately 0.4 percent of patients screened for antibody production developed antibodies with binding capacities > 2 mg/L at six months. Out of approximately 26,000 patients who have been treated with Protropin (somatrem) , 5 patients have had growth deceleration associated with binding capacities > 2 mg/L. If growth deceleration is observed that is not attributable to another cause, the patient should be tested for antibodies to growth hormone. Although no evidence exists to indicate that the methionine on the N-terminus of somatrem causes antibodies to growth hormone, the physician should consider transferring the patient to somatropin (rDNA origin) for injection, if a patient has antibody binding capacity > 2 mg/L, and has exhibited growth attenuation.

    Humatrope (Somatropin, 191aa) literature stated:

    As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. During the first 6 months of Humatrope therapy in 314 naive patients, only 1.6% developed specific antibodies to Humatrope (binding capacity = to or >0.02 mg/L). None had antibody concentrations which exceeded 2 mg/L. Throughout 8 years of this same study, two patients (0.6%) had binding capacity >2 mg/L. Neither patient demonstrated a decrease in growth velocity at or near the time of increased antibody production. It has been reported that growth attenuation from pituitary***8211;derived growth hormone may occur when antibody concentrations are >1.5 mg/L.


    And yet further readings in regards to HGH antibodies. The important aspects of each study are in red.

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12434920

    The use of an animal immunogenicity model in the development of Protropin somatrem (methionyl human growth hormone).

    Abstract
    The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3296632

    Human growth hormone produced with recombinant DNA technology: development and production.

    Abstract
    The molecular basis of recombinant DNA technology is described, and the principles of genetically engineered proteins developed. The production of hGH by such methods utilizes a strain of Escherichia coli as host and a vector plasmid containing the appropriate information. Fermentation and purification of the hGH produced gives a preparation of high purity, containing only 1-2 ppm of E. coli polypeptide (ECP). This somatrem (Somatonorm) is identical to pituitary hGH except for an additional methionine residue at the N-terminal. Monoclonal antibodies fail to distinguish between pituitary hGH and somatrem. Preclinical studies of a variety of pharmacological and toxicological parameters indicate that the two hGH preparations have identical biological effects; no toxicological or mutagenic effects of somatrem have been detected.

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2582244

    Monoclonal antibodies to human growth hormone can distinguish between pituitary and genetically engineered forms.

    Abstract
    Monoclonal antibodies (MABs) prepared against human pituitary growth hormone (hGH) have been compared for their binding to pituitary-derived and genetically engineered methionyl growth hormone (met-hGH). The antibodies bind to four non-overlapping epitopes of which two are completely shared with human choronic somatomammotropin (hCS). The determinant defined by MAB NA27 was expressed on met-hGH to a lesser degree than on hGH of pituitary origin. However, another antibody, QA68, which binds to a determinant closely related to NA27, failed to discriminate between hGH and met-hGH. A further two MABs (EB1 and NA71) were similarly ineffective in distinguishing between the two forms of the hormone. The determinant recognized by antibody EB2 was equally represented on hGH and met-hGH when assessed by a liquid-phase radioimmunoassay: however, measurement of the binding in a solid-phase assay resulted in a two-four-fold lower binding to met-hGH. Bioactivity assessed by both an in vitro cell proliferation assay and an in vivo cartilage sulphation bioassay failed to distinguish between the two hormones. It is therefore concluded that the NH2-terminal methionine on bacterially derived growth hormone results in altered antigenicity of the hormone without any measurable effect on bioactivity.
    Last edited by BfB; 04-27-2012 at 01:04 AM.

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