Anabolic steroids, bodybuilding discussion forums. - Steroidology

 

(Forum for members to discuss the use of anabolic steroids)

Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 187
Like Tree10Likes
  1. #1
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    First Cycle and PCT
    Testosterone cycle design



    Almost weekly someone posts on the Chemical Enhancement forum asking about first cycle advice. The most common questions are; “what steroid should I take?” “How long should I take it?” and “What will the effects be?” There are literally dozens of steroids available and that makes it difficult for a first time user to choose. The following information will attempt to provide enough information for a first time user to make an educated decision about anabolic androgenic steroid use.

    Testosterone is one of the most effective, safe and available steroids today, therefore I believe Testosterone is the best first cycle choice. The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance. In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
    600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and IGF-1.

    The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.

    The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for IGF-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and IGF-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

    Total Testosterone
    300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
    600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline
    IGF-1
    300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
    600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

    Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

    Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
    300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
    600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
    Fat Mass by underwater weighing
    300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
    600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
    Thigh Muscle Volume
    300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
    600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
    Quadriceps Muscle Volume
    300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
    600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
    Leg Press Strength
    300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
    600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
    Leg Power
    300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
    600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
    Hemoglobin
    300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
    600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
    Plasma HDL Cholesterol
    300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
    600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
    Acne
    300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
    600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

    There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

    Given the results of the study and based on years of personal experience I believe the first time user can safely use between 300-600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate per week for 8-12 weeks. Because it is desirable to have even blood androgen levels I advise at least 2 equal injections per week. The following graph demonstrates that testosterone cypionate peaks within 1-2 days after injection and falls off to almost baseline by day 10. Therefore waiting 7 days between injections of cypionate would cause wide fluctuations in blood androgen levels.

    Pharmacokinetics of Testosterone cypionate Injection




    Source: Schulte-Beerbuhl, 1980
    Figure. Pharmacokinetics of 200mg Testosterone cypionate injection. Source: Comparison of Testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of Testosterone enanthate or Testosterone cypionate. Schulte-Beerbuhl M, Nieschlag E. Fertility and Sterility 33 (1980) 201-3.

    If a first time user wanted to use 600 mg of cypionate or enanthate per week he would inject 300 mg on Tuesday and another 300 mg on Saturday each week for 10 weeks. When injecting long heavy esters like cypionate with this frequency I tend to have less acne then 1 injection per week.

    There are a number of esters which provide varying release times. Acetate or propionate esters extend the release time of testosterone a couple of days. In contrast, a deconate ester prolongs the release of testosterone about 3 weeks. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are almost identical esters. The use of an ester allows for a less frequent injection schedule than using a water based testosterone like suspension which has no ester at all and is rapidly in and out of your system after injection. The published release times are not exact and are many times based on a single injection not many multiple injections which can delay the release of the hormone. Other factors affect release times of esters such as scar tissue and the muscle group injected. Only a blood test can confirm when the active hormone has cleared your system.

    Esters not only effect release times but also the potency of the Testosterone as esters make up part of the steroid weight. This must be taken into account when calculating dosages. The longer the release time the less free hormone. For example propionate is about 15% more potent mg. for mg. then enanthate so 500mg of propionate would equal about 575 mg. of enanthate. The following chart illustrates the free base equivalents for several compounds.



    Although it was not indicated in the trial, during or after the steroid cycle some men are prone to gynecomastia which is the formation of female like breast tissue. This is due to excessive estrogen as the body tries to balance out the sex hormones. A selective estrogen receptor modulator or S.E.R.M. such as Tamoxifen can be used effectively to combat gynecamastia in an emergency as it competes for the estrogen receptor which in turn inhibits estrogens effects. It is highly recommended that a S.E.R.M. be available during treatment of Testosterone. 10-40mg daily is an effective dose however dosage is dependant on how much testosterone is administered as well as the individual himself.

    The decision to use steroids should not be taken lightly and should be the last consideration after implementing a solid nutritional, training and recovery plan. It is advised to get blood work when using these medications.

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men



    Ancillaries during the cycle



    Aromatase Inhibitor


    I briefly wrote about using Tamoxifen above for emergency gynecomastia treatment however I am convinced that there is a better strategy for controlling estrogen during a steroid cycle. Rather than waiting for the side effects of estrogen to present an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex or Aromasin should be used on cycle to control Estrogen and keep free testosterone levels high. 0.5mg-1mg Arimidex daily OR 10-25mg Aromasin daily. Start with the lower dose and then see how that controls water retention, blood pressure and libido and make adjustments as needed. A blood test would be the most ideal way to determine the dosage of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Free T needs to be in the high range and estradiol between 10-25 pg/ml.


    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin



    Testosterone-Induced gonadotropin suppression tends to cause atrophy of the testes and decreases intratesticular testosterone. In other words, when a male administers testosterone his testes shrink because they are suppressed. A simple way to restore ITT levels and maintain the mass of the testes is to administer Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during testosterone treatment. During a study it was determined that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is dose dependant and that approximately 300iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) taken every other day restored ITT levels. This is 1,050iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) weekly. I recommend 500iu twice weekly while on testosterone treatment. On a very heavy cycle a third dose of 500iu could be added but that is typically not needed. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will not only keep ITT levels and the mass of the testes normal but will also aid in keeping the male fertile.


    Sample cycle with ancillaries


    Sunday 10mg Aromasin
    Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
    Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate
    Wednesday 10mg Aromasin
    Thursday 10mg Aromasin
    Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
    Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate


    For all you guys who want to add multiple compounds to your first course I advise against it because if you have side effects then you will not know which compound is causing the sides. I have gotton a ton of PM's over the years and there is always some reason that I am given for using multiple compounds on the first run but there really is no need. However my cycle sample above may not be for everyone so I am offering an alternative to the flat cycle design. If you want to run a first cycle with a little more horespower than you may want to consider a modified pyramiding cycle. I have done over 20 pyramid courses and must say they are my favorite way to run aas. The human body is always fighting for homeostasis so the concept is to increase dose before gains plateau. Based on the 2009 myostatin study we can design a cycle that is effective for 10 weeks using this strategy. The following first cycle is for men that want a little more performance with added risk while only using Testosterone. The first 5 weeks a standard dose is administered to evaluate how your body responds and to determine if sides are manageable. If sides are manageable then increase the dose.

    Sample first course #2


    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    10 mg Aromasin daily with the goal of keeping Estradiol between 10pg/ml-25pg/ml. Only blood work can confirm if you are in this range.

    500iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) twice weekly.


    Post Cycle therapy


    I strongly believe that an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) aromatize therefore using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during post cycle therapy (pct). It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.

    I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

    Day 1-16 : 2500iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every other day. (You may use less Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) etd.)

    100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3 after aas ester clears)

    20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

    3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

    10g creatine daily

    The Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

    Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

    Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) low to none.

    Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

    The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

    References


    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

    Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use.


    ~heavyiron
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    22,960
    Rep Power
    269
    my standard 1st cycle reccomendation is 400-600 mg of test eth or cyp divided into 2 injections a week for 10-12 weeks.
    Mass_Man likes this.
    NOT ONLY IS STUPIDITY INCURABLE BUT ITS ALSO CONTAGIOUS OVER THE INTERNET.

    VAR ONLY CYCLES ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WITH A VAGINA.

  3. #3
    Amateur Bodybuilder balboa270's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    2,951
    Rep Power
    5
    man heavyiron you got a plethora of graphs

  4. #4
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    22,960
    Rep Power
    269
    Quote Originally Posted by balboa270 View Post
    man heavyiron you got a plethora of graphs
    someones been using the dictionary
    NOT ONLY IS STUPIDITY INCURABLE BUT ITS ALSO CONTAGIOUS OVER THE INTERNET.

    VAR ONLY CYCLES ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WITH A VAGINA.

  5. #5
    Amateur Bodybuilder balboa270's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    2,951
    Rep Power
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by DADAWG View Post
    someones been using the dictionary
    not robbing op but piss off dadawg ive been reading lol

  6. #6
    LEARNING weights=life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    3 cliques south of her equator ;)
    Posts
    1,216
    Rep Power
    3
    great post, love the depth of pct gave me a lot to think about and reconsider. so nolva with clomid and aromosin still bad for igf-1 levels and lh reproduction or just on its own so im clear?

  7. #7
    Resident Researcher essays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,046
    Rep Power
    3
    Good post. I liked it all except this part here:

    Sample first course #2

    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    I would never recommend someone on their first cycle bumps their dose to 800mg of test per week, definitely not a gram. One of the most important things you learn during your first cycle is that with patience comes understanding. In this case, if you're patient, you will come to realize that 400-600mg of test per week is doing PLENTY on its own.

  8. #8
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    22,960
    Rep Power
    269
    Quote Originally Posted by essays View Post
    Good post. I liked it all except this part here:

    Sample first course #2

    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    I would never recommend someone on their first cycle bumps their dose to 800mg of test per week, definitely not a gram. One of the most important things you learn during your first cycle is that with patience comes understanding. In this case, if you're patient, you will come to realize that 400-600mg of test per week is doing PLENTY on its own.
    pyramiding doses up and down is one of the old school techniques that pops back up from time to time but i wish it wouldnt . it doesnt serve any real purpose.
    wilmor324 likes this.
    NOT ONLY IS STUPIDITY INCURABLE BUT ITS ALSO CONTAGIOUS OVER THE INTERNET.

    VAR ONLY CYCLES ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WITH A VAGINA.

  9. #9
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by balboa270 View Post
    man heavyiron you got a plethora of graphs
    Most guys (myself included) are visual learners. Its hard for many to read text without some form of visual aid so I find it very helpful when trying to convey a thought to use graphs and charts.

  10. #10
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    22,960
    Rep Power
    269
    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    Most guys (myself included) are visual learners.
    thats why we look at porn
    NOT ONLY IS STUPIDITY INCURABLE BUT ITS ALSO CONTAGIOUS OVER THE INTERNET.

    VAR ONLY CYCLES ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WITH A VAGINA.

  11. #11
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by weights=life View Post
    great post, love the depth of post cycle therapy (pct) gave me a lot to think about and reconsider. so nolva with clomid and aromosin still bad for igf-1 levels and lh reproduction or just on its own so im clear?
    If you are really worried about Nolva lowering IGF-1 you may consider using IGF-1 alongside your Nolva during post cycle therapy (pct) as another option brother.

  12. #12
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by essays View Post
    Good post. I liked it all except this part here:

    Sample first course #2

    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    I would never recommend someone on their first cycle bumps their dose to 800mg of test per week, definitely not a gram. One of the most important things you learn during your first cycle is that with patience comes understanding. In this case, if you're patient, you will come to realize that 400-600mg of test per week is doing PLENTY on its own.
    Overall I can agree with the patience aspect and new guys do need to learn. However I did want to provide a more aggressive option for guys who want more horsepower.

    My first cycle was about 24 years ago. It went WAY higher on dose than that sample cycle. It was pretty common back in the late 80's to cycle like this. I used to train with Mr Colorado back then and that is how he cycled.

    Interestingly, once the Myostatin study came out in 2009 we learned why gains may stall in a standard flat cycle around day 56. This science is the basis for increasing dose or adding additional compounds to overcome the increase in Myostatin.

  13. #13
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by DADAWG View Post
    pyramiding doses up and down is one of the old school techniques that pops back up from time to time but i wish it wouldnt . it doesnt serve any real purpose.

    The following may be the answer (tentatively). this report on myostatin (a powerful muscle growth inhibitor) shows that after 8 weeks on Testosterone, myostatin levels rise significantly. Fortunately it's dependent on Testosterone levels and not muscle mass. When you stop the Test, myostatin levels go back to normal....

    8-10 weeks is when the gains from a cycle tend to stall out. this science gives us insight for 3 strategies.

    1. Do 8-9 week cycles then PCT

    2. Increase dose/compounds before week 8.

    3. Stay on. (At 20 weeks myostatin returns to baseline)


    : Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2009 Apr 10;302(1):26-32. Epub 2009 Jan 21. Links

    Measurement of myostatin concentrations in human serum: Circulating concentrations in young and older men and effects of testosterone administration.

    Lakshman KM, Bhasin S, Corcoran C, Collins-Racie LA, Tchistiakova L, Forlow SB, St Ledger K, Burczynski ME, Dorner AJ, Lavallie ER.
    Section of Endocrinology, Diabetes, and Nutrition, Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center, 670 Albany Street, Boston, MA 02118, United States.

    Methodological problems, including binding of myostatin to plasma proteins and cross-reactivity of assay reagents with other proteins, have confounded myostatin measurements. Here we describe development of an accurate assay for measuring myostatin concentrations in humans. Monoclonal antibodies that bind to distinct regions of myostatin served as capture and detector antibodies in a sandwich ELISA that used acid treatment to dissociate myostatin from binding proteins. Serum from myostatin-deficient Belgian Blue cattle was used as matrix and recombinant human myostatin as standard. The quantitative range was 0.15-37.50 ng/mL. Intra- and inter-assay CVs in low, mid, and high range were 4.1%, 4.7%, and 7.2%, and 3.9%, 1.6%, and 5.2%, respectively. Myostatin protein was undetectable in sera of Belgian Blue cattle and myostatin knockout mice. Recovery in spiked sera approximated 100%. ActRIIB-Fc or anti-myostatin antibody MYO-029 had no effect on myostatin measurements when assayed at pH 2.5. Myostatin levels were higher in young than older men (mean+/-S.E.M. 8.0+/-0.3 ng/mL vs. 7.0+/-0.4 ng/mL, P=0.03). In men treated with graded doses of testosterone, myostatin levels were significantly higher on day 56 than baseline in both young and older men; changes in myostatin levels were significantly correlated with changes in total and free testosterone in young men. Myostatin levels were not significantly associated with lean body mass in either young or older men. CONCLUSION: Myostatin ELISA has the characteristics of a valid assay: nearly 100% recovery, excellent precision, accuracy, and sufficient sensitivity to enable measurement of myostatin concentrations in men and women.

    PMID: 19356623 [PubMed - in process]

  14. #14
    just a Lil guy!!!
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    pittsburgh
    Posts
    3,669
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by DADAWG View Post
    someones been using the dictionary
    Fucking hilarious. Lol. Poor boa!!

  15. #15
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    22,960
    Rep Power
    269
    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    The following may be the answer (tentatively). this report on myostatin (a powerful muscle growth inhibitor) shows that after 8 weeks on Testosterone, myostatin levels rise significantly. Fortunately it's dependent on Testosterone levels and not muscle mass. When you stop the Test, myostatin levels go back to normal....

    8-10 weeks is when the gains from a cycle tend to stall out. this science gives us insight for 3 strategies.

    1. Do 8-9 week cycles then PCT

    2. Increase dose/compounds before week 8.

    3. Stay on. (At 20 weeks myostatin returns to baseline)


    : Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2009 Apr 10;302(1):26-32. Epub 2009 Jan 21. Links

    Measurement of myostatin concentrations in human serum: Circulating concentrations in young and older men and effects of testosterone administration.

    Lakshman KM, Bhasin S, Corcoran C, Collins-Racie LA, Tchistiakova L, Forlow SB, St Ledger K, Burczynski ME, Dorner AJ, Lavallie ER.
    Section of Endocrinology, Diabetes, and Nutrition, Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center, 670 Albany Street, Boston, MA 02118, United States.

    Methodological problems, including binding of myostatin to plasma proteins and cross-reactivity of assay reagents with other proteins, have confounded myostatin measurements. Here we describe development of an accurate assay for measuring myostatin concentrations in humans. Monoclonal antibodies that bind to distinct regions of myostatin served as capture and detector antibodies in a sandwich ELISA that used acid treatment to dissociate myostatin from binding proteins. Serum from myostatin-deficient Belgian Blue cattle was used as matrix and recombinant human myostatin as standard. The quantitative range was 0.15-37.50 ng/mL. Intra- and inter-assay CVs in low, mid, and high range were 4.1%, 4.7%, and 7.2%, and 3.9%, 1.6%, and 5.2%, respectively. Myostatin protein was undetectable in sera of Belgian Blue cattle and myostatin knockout mice. Recovery in spiked sera approximated 100%. ActRIIB-Fc or anti-myostatin antibody MYO-029 had no effect on myostatin measurements when assayed at pH 2.5. Myostatin levels were higher in young than older men (mean+/-S.E.M. 8.0+/-0.3 ng/mL vs. 7.0+/-0.4 ng/mL, P=0.03). In men treated with graded doses of testosterone, myostatin levels were significantly higher on day 56 than baseline in both young and older men; changes in myostatin levels were significantly correlated with changes in total and free testosterone in young men. Myostatin levels were not significantly associated with lean body mass in either young or older men. CONCLUSION: Myostatin ELISA has the characteristics of a valid assay: nearly 100% recovery, excellent precision, accuracy, and sufficient sensitivity to enable measurement of myostatin concentrations in men and women.

    PMID: 19356623 [PubMed - in process]
    real world experience has shown my that 90% of the times gains stop in a cycle is due to diet / calories. over and over ive heard the whole receptor shut down myth and other reasons as well but when people that i was watching with my own eye took my advice and upped their calories their gains started back . im not saying they dont slow down but they dont stop unless your stunt them with low calories.

    over and over steroid newbie steve/jim/etc. starts a cycle at 200 pounds and taking 3500 calories [ made up that number ] steve /jim/etc. gains 15 pounds and his gains stop , he cries receptor shutdown or some other nonsense but when i pin him down he says hes still doing those same 3500 calories at 215 pounds as he did at 200 pounds. the bigger the machine = the more fuel it needs. 3500 calories may have been a bulking diet at 200 pounds but its a maintainence diet at 215 pounds.
    pbarby likes this.
    NOT ONLY IS STUPIDITY INCURABLE BUT ITS ALSO CONTAGIOUS OVER THE INTERNET.

    VAR ONLY CYCLES ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WITH A VAGINA.

  16. #16
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by DADAWG View Post
    real world experience has shown my that 90% of the times gains stop in a cycle is due to diet / calories. over and over ive heard the whole receptor shut down myth and other reasons as well but when people that i was watching with my own eye took my advice and upped their calories their gains started back . im not saying they dont slow down but they dont stop unless your stunt them with low calories.

    over and over steroid newbie steve/jim/etc. starts a cycle at 200 pounds and taking 3500 calories [ made up that number ] steve /jim/etc. gains 15 pounds and his gains stop , he cries receptor shutdown or some other nonsense but when i pin him down he says hes still doing those same 3500 calories at 215 pounds as he did at 200 pounds. the bigger the machine = the more fuel it needs. 3500 calories may have been a bulking diet at 200 pounds but its a maintainence diet at 215 pounds.
    Myostatin elevations are a reality when administering Testosterone so I'm not sure I would put that in the same category as AR "shut down" since there is good science to the contrary. However, nutrition is critical so I have no debate with that but make no mistake, your body will fight for homeostasis and Myostatin is one way your body does that while on T. If that was not the case we would be able to continue growing LBM indefinitely.

  17. #17
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,203
    Rep Power
    22
    great info, thanks for taking the time to write this.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  18. #18
    Novice
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    95
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by DADAWG View Post
    real world experience has shown my that 90% of the times gains stop in a cycle is due to diet / calories. over and over ive heard the whole receptor shut down myth and other reasons as well but when people that i was watching with my own eye took my advice and upped their calories their gains started back . im not saying they dont slow down but they dont stop unless your stunt them with low calories.

    over and over steroid newbie steve/jim/etc. starts a cycle at 200 pounds and taking 3500 calories [ made up that number ] steve /jim/etc. gains 15 pounds and his gains stop , he cries receptor shutdown or some other nonsense but when i pin him down he says hes still doing those same 3500 calories at 215 pounds as he did at 200 pounds. the bigger the machine = the more fuel it needs. 3500 calories may have been a bulking diet at 200 pounds but its a maintainence diet at 215 pounds.

    thats a VERY good point!!

  19. #19
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    great info, thanks for taking the time to write this.
    You are very welcome!

  20. #20
    Junior Bodybuilder diggydev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    the rotten apple
    Posts
    384
    Rep Power
    4
    nice info heavy iron...enjoy reading your posts thus far. one thing to keep in mind here, is that it seems to me most of us...probably 98% of us are amateur users..weekend warriors...whatever you want to call us. some young and dumb (very dumb) and some of us who are getting older and are interested in getting as much education as we can about AAS. not many of us are competing or even close to that mindframe (as far as i can tell). just don't want a 22 year old newb running around at the bar or club on a gram of test a week for his first cycle cause he read it on the net!! lol

    keep the posts coming brother, nice to see different thinking. very interesting take on the aromasin pct..kind of replacing the nolva..interested in hearing a little more about that. my planned pct right now is clomid 50/50/50/50 nolva 40/40/20/20 aromasin 12.5 ED 3g vit c ED.

    I notice you add the 10g of creatine, what's thinking there?
    Last edited by diggydev; 12-16-2011 at 11:57 PM.

  21. #21
    Novice
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    125
    Rep Power
    3
    good information bro.

  22. #22
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydev View Post
    nice info heavy iron...enjoy reading your posts thus far. one thing to keep in mind here, is that it seems to me most of us...probably 98% of us are amateur users..weekend warriors...whatever you want to call us. some young and dumb (very dumb) and some of us who are getting older and are interested in getting as much education as we can about AAS. not many of us are competing or even close to that mindframe (as far as i can tell). just don't want a 22 year old newb running around at the bar or club on a gram of test a week for his first cycle cause he read it on the net!! lol

    keep the posts coming brother, nice to see different thinking. very interesting take on the aromasin pct..kind of replacing the nolva..interested in hearing a little more about that. my planned pct right now is clomid 50/50/50/50 nolva 40/40/20/20 aromasin 12.5 ED 3g vit c ED.

    I notice you add the 10g of creatine, what's thinking there?
    Thank you brother.

    It has been interesting to note the reactions of various boards members over the years to proposed cycles. There's an apparent "board philosophy" on many websites. Some are conservative, others seem more liberal. Early on I used to have some set philosophies that I have had to re evaluate over the years. However I think it would be a good discussion to ask why we have these philosophies. Why is 1 gram too much? Why is 600mg OK? Why 8 weeks? Why 14 weeks? Why 22 years old? Why 20 years old?

    There are some good reasons for the answers but some are a bit murky and feel grey area to me. Lets look at the above study and evaluate it against a conservative mindset.

    1. 18 year olds participated in the study
    2. The Testosterone was administered for 20 weeks
    3. The participants did not undergo any strength training.

    So the scientists felt it was ethical for an 18 year old to use Testosterone for 20 weeks and NOT work out. LOL! The experts (not some guy on the net) have a VERY different philosophy then most of us. Why?

    Now, I'm not arguing for an 18 year old to run 600mg of T for 20 weeks and not train so please don't misunderstand me. The experts however thought is was perfectly fine. Lets look at the flip side. These subjects were monitored by doctors the entire 20 weeks so there was precautionary measures. I have no illusions your typical 18 year old will seek medical supervision though. It just isn't likely especially since steroid use is often illegal in various Countries.

    Anyway, we all have our ideas on what is the threshold for use and I try not to judge those that use more or less than I think but we all have our pre-concieved ideas, myself included. At the end of the day I want guys to be safe and educated so that is probably one of the strongest motivators we all use to make our judgments.

    PCT can be accomplished many ways but a SERM is one component I always like to see in post cycle therapy (pct). Interestingly, no PCT often times results in full recovery if the subject is young, healthy and ran a shorter cycle but it will be prolonged without a SERM.

    E2 may be high post PCT so getting labs to determine Aromatase inhibitor (AI) use is probably the best course of action.

    Creatine has been shown to increase IGF-1 levels at higher doses and may even be slightly anabolic. The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

  23. #23
    Eternal Student Lapple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Mile High City
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    3
    Great post man! Very informative, us "old newbs" love this kind of data!

    A good friend of mine back east suggested an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (liquidex) for my first cycle, he said it helped with the water gain and he said he felt he had less water loss and kept more size after his cycle. Thoughts?

  24. #24
    Community Veteran heavyiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Staying Anabolic
    Posts
    659
    Rep Power
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Lapple View Post
    Great post man! Very informative, us "old newbs" love this kind of data!

    A good friend of mine back east suggested an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (liquidex) for my first cycle, he said it helped with the water gain and he said he felt he had less water loss and kept more size after his cycle. Thoughts?
    Thank you!

    I'm very pro Aromatase inhibitor (AI) use. Estrogen at high levels is not our friend so I always run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with aromatizing compounds.

  25. #25
    Novice
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    86
    Rep Power
    4
    Wow I've been lurking on this site for awhile and I am getting to the point of wanting to start my first cycle so this has really helped. Thanks man for this write up!

uniquemicals
Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
  1. By supergirl in forum Women's General Discussion Forum
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 01-29-2014, 12:17 PM
  2. By Dr.Xta-C in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 04-11-2013, 11:33 PM
  3. By JOOSE in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 09-09-2011, 02:37 AM
  4. By Greazy-Pickle in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 02-10-2010, 01:29 PM
  5. By Gerard in forum Supplement Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-20-2005, 04:13 PM
Tags for this Thread
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  

3Js Nutrition Network

juicepump













3Js Nutrition Network

mr supps

health and fitness talk





health and fitness talk