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  1. #1
    Novice JOOSE's Avatar
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    Post First cycle with test 250
    Alright so i am about to start my first cycle. So far i have ordered test 250 2x 10ml, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 5000iu, Aromasin 12.5 40 count, and clomid 30 count. Heres my cycle so far for 10 week period

    Test enthanate 250-Mon and Thurs only 250mg per day =total of 500mg per week
    HCG- 250iu Mon and Thurs per day=500iu per week
    Aromasin during cycle-taking 12.5 every third day
    post cycle therapy (pct)(2 weeks after last pin)-clomid=3 weeks every day

    Need a vast amount of opinions to give me any input before starting. And a few questions to be answered

    *Since this is my first cycle, i want everything to run smoothly and at the same time i want to take every precaution, so my questions is do i really need Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) because ive heard it can cause gyno, but im guessing this is because its taking in excessive amounts. Do i need to space the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) out ? mabye start week 4 whats the best remedy here? getting mixed options from anyone. just want a straight forward answer with detail when and why.

    As for the Aromasin whats the best option there? Do i start from day one of test or can i just start when post cycle therapy (pct) starts. Upon starting can i start from day 1 and take it every third day? Should i start later into the cycle? Reason for the question is bc getting diff answers. I just want the most beneficial and straight forward answer with health being included.


    More than happy to get experienced opinions. Thank you

  2. #2
    Novice Phil Mc Win's Avatar
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    I would keep your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for your post cycle therapy (pct). Your not taking a big enough dose to have to do it during. Also once your done your cycle, what will you use for post cycle therapy (pct). Clomid alone isint enough IMO. I would run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and clomid for post cycle therapy (pct). The aromisin is perfect during. Will keep sides minimal. Just make sure u stop taking it befor you start your pct.

  3. #3
    Novice Phil Mc Win's Avatar
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    Here is why my friend-
    Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism:

    Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (lh - leutenizing hormone - ) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - ) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH).

    The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (anabolic steroids) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum lh - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - concentrations.

    In order to avoid any unnecessary confusion, it is important to understand what the actions of Gonadatropin therapy and Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are as well as how they differ from each other and more specifically, during post cycle recovery (post cycle therapy (pct)).

    Gonadotropin Therapy:

    There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hcg). The action of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is identical to that of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - . This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of post cycle therapy (pct) is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect. In the majority of individuals with larger testes at baseline, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) alone is sufficient in restoring endogenous testosterone production as well at the induction of spermatogenesis which is most likely a result of residual FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - secretion. Once there is a plateau in the response to hcg, treatment with an FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to hcg.

    *The addition of an FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparation is rarely required and is best suited for severe cases of HH. FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparations are not readily available to most individuals. Therefore, there is no need to go into details with respect to its application at this time.

    hcg is administered by subcutaneous (SC) or intramuscular (IM) injection. The average (3ml 22-25G x ***8541;-1½”) syringe is adequate for IM injections but insulin syringes (½-1ml 28-30G x ½-1”) are recommended for SC injections. In regards to effectiveness, there should be no discernable difference between either of the techniques. The individual should opt for the most comfortable and/or convenient form of administration.

    The following is a description of the available preparations by Serono:

    hcg ampoules are supplied in 500, 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 1 ml of sterile dilluent. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F) and should be used immediately after reconstitution.

    hcg multidose vials are supplied in 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 10 ml of bacteriostatic water. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F), refrigerated (2-8 degrees C or 36-46 degrees F) after reconstitution and used within 30 days.

    Other manufacturers are available and preparations may vary.

    The terms international units (IUs) can occasionally cause confusion when reconstituting and measuring hcg. The actual process is quite elementary and the concentration per ml (cc) is dependant on the concentration of the lyophilized powder and the volume of dilluent used for reconstitution. For example, if you dilute 5,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) with 5ml (cc) solvent, the end result is 1,000 IUs per ml (cc). Divide the same 5,000 IUs with 10 ml (cc) and the end result is 500 IUs per ml (cc).

    *bacteriostatic water should always be utilized during reconstitution when long term (30 day) storage and multi dose administration are required.

    Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators:

    Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) such as Clomiphine (Clomid) and Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) increase pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - secretion in secondary manner by blocking estrogen negative feedback on the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - . On average, this is not strong enough by itself to counteract the severe imbalance of the androgen:estrogen ratio that is encountered post cycle, especially in the presence of testicular atrophy. Therefore, SERMs are used during post cycle therapy (pct) primarily as an anti estrogen and to continue the stimulation of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - after Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) has been discontinued.

    Nolvadex is widely available in 10 mg or 20 mg tablet preparations and Clomid is available in 50 mg tablet preparations.

    Before Beginning post cycle therapy (pct):

    It is highly recommended to establish baseline blood values before beginning a cycle. The same principle applies to establishing post cycle blood values, which are necessary for evaluating recovery. Post cycle blood work should be obtained approximately 4 weeks after the cessation of post cycle therapy (pct) in order to determine accurate readings. Additional blood work should be performed when applicable and/or required.

    The following are Fasting blood values:

    Hormone

    1. Cortisol, Total
    2. Estradiol, Extraction
    3. Prolactin
    4. lh - leutenizing hormone -
    5. FSH - follicle stimulating hormone -
    6. T3, Free
    7. T4, Free
    8. TSH
    9. testosterone, Total, Free and Weakly Bound
    10. Hemoglobin A1C
    11. Fasting insulin
    12. Somatomedian C (optional)

    Cardiovascular

    13. CBC
    14. Comprehensive ********* Panel
    15. Lipid Panel

    Other

    16. GGT Important Liver Value not included in Comp ********* Panel

    When to begin post cycle therapy (pct):

    On average, begin post cycle therapy (pct) approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin post cycle therapy (pct) 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.

    Keep in mind, pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning post cycle therapy (pct). This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known “crash” effect.

    *As previously mentioned, the actions of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system.

    post cycle therapy (pct) Protocol(s):

    1.) 1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    2.) 1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    3.) 1,500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    4.) 1,500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    Option one can be considered as a standard post cycle therapy (pct) protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.

    *The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire post cycle therapy (pct) at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.

    hcg During Cycle:

    hcg in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.

    Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning post cycle therapy (pct). This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage.

    Leydig Cell Desensitization:

    Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the lh - leutenizing hormone - receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the post cycle therapy (pct) to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.

    The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing hcg's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

    Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:

    Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - . Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing anabolic steroids. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will more than likely need to be addressed during post cycle therapy (pct). In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery. Blood work is imperative in evaluating the effectiveness of therapy. This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary.

    *There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing anabolic steroids. Although not absolutely necessary and considering the necessary restoration of physiological estrogen values, there is sufficient evidence which suggests that aromatase inhibitors can improve and increase recovery rates.

    Unsuccessful post cycle therapy (pct):

    In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).

    This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.

    Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual’s response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.

    Ongoing Argument(s):

    Hypothetically speaking, if testicular function and volume have been maintained during cycle with hcg, SERMs are then utilized to counteract the imbalance in the androgen:estrogen ratio encountered post cycle as the exogenous androgens diminish. This results in the prevention of estrogenic side effects while increasing pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - secretion which in turn increases testosterone production.

    There is nothing wrong with using a commonly referred to protocol which recommends 250-500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 1-2x/wk to be incorporated throughout the cycle. However, a significant cause for concern in regards to this protocol relates to the cessation of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) once the cycle has completed and from that point on, the only substances used during post cycle therapy (pct) are SERMs which consist of Nolvadex and/or Clomid. Realistically, there is absolutely no guarantee that this formula prevents testicular atrophy to the extent where the overall volume and function of the testes are in an optimal state. Unfortunately, a large majority of individuals do not realize or are not aware that Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur with prolonged or high dosage Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage. Therefore, users which follow this protocol whom do not incorporate Nolvadex or an aromatase inhibitor are now susceptible to Leydig cell desensitization which may render Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage post cycle ineffective when and if needed.

    During conservative cycles, there is substantial evidence which exists that supports the effectiveness of the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle and SERMs only post cycle protocol, especially when proper estrogen and prolactin management has been incorporated. However, this conclusion is much more difficult to achieve on heavy or prolonged cycles. Testicular volume should be maintained to an acceptable extent but that does not necessarily result in an improved recovery as severe HTPA suppression still exists which is not immediately repairable through the usage of SERMs.

    The most common argument here when incorporating Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during post cycle therapy (pct) is that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) itself is suppressive. This is true and one particular way this occurs is though the constant binding of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) which disrupts the endogenous pulsatile secretion of lh - leutenizing hormone - . A recent study which included the usage of 250 mcgs Ovidrel (rHCG) 2x/wk for 12 weeks demonstrated that the patients resumed normal hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - function within four weeks upon cessation, without the usage of SERMs. What’s even more interesting is that 250 mcgs rHCG is the equivalent of approximately 5,000 IUs uHCG. Therefore, putting things into perspective, a few additional weeks of suppression is nothing to be overly concerned about compared to and considering the 12 weeks of suppression incurred during the average cycle. The usage of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during post cycle therapy (pct) is a minimally intrusive variable where the benefits clearly exceed the associated costs.

    Conclusion:

    post cycle therapy (pct) should begin after the last injection and/or anabolic steroids intake. More specifically, a relative guideline to begin post cycle therapy (pct) is within 5-10 days when using long acting esters or 1-3 days when using short acting esters. This post cycle therapy (pct) protocol should consist of 1,000-1,500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mod/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and, if necessary, 50-100 mgs Clomid ED. The mid/intermittent cycle protocol of 500-1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively can and should be utilized when necessary during prolonged (12+/wks) or heavy dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In addition, blood work should be performed before beginning a cycle and after completing a cycle in order to establish baseline values and evaluate recovery, respectively.

    If recovery is unsuccessful, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is continued with an adjustment in dosage and frequency as necessary until the increase in testicular volume and function have been achieved which is unlike the more typical, yet incorrect belief that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is only to be used for a short period of time. Once there is a plateau in the response to hcg, treatment with an FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added at a starting dose of 75-150 IUs on alternate days. This continual usage is not necessary and avoidable in most cases by utilizing the mid/intermittent protocol previously mentioned, but it is much more common and less avoidable with long term (1+/yr) users, whom have not taken the suggested preventive measures, and/or improper recovery from previous cycles regardless of which protocol is chosen.

    With the usage of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle, your androgens are elevated but well below that of supraphysiological concentrations from exogenous hormones. In addition, a noteworthy difference is that the effect is through a direct stimulation of testicular production compared to the secondary nature of SERMs in conjunction in the presence of testis that are not guaranteed to be in an optimal functioning state. Upon completion, blood work will display significantly higher levels of lh - leutenizing hormone - , FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - and testosterone in this environment which includes Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and SERMs during post cycle therapy (pct) versus Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle and SERMs only during post cycle therapy (pct). This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. In conclusion, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) should always be included during post cycle therapy (pct) in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery.

  4. #4
    Novice JOOSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mc Win View Post
    I would keep your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for your post cycle therapy (pct). Your not taking a big enough dose to have to do it during. Also once your done your cycle, what will you use for post cycle therapy (pct). Clomid alone isint enough IMO. I would run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and clomid for post cycle therapy (pct). The aromisin is perfect during. Will keep sides minimal. Just make sure u stop taking it befor you start your post cycle therapy (pct).
    Okay but is there a reason why i will be running it after? i heard that by running it lets say the same days as my test shots, will help my body prepare for my post cycle therapy (pct) as well as keep my balls running smoothly

  5. #5
    Jacked and Tan MeatHead96's Avatar
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    Aromasin has a half life of 27 hours so you really should be running that every day to keep levels steady. You would be better off doing 6.25 ed.

  6. #6
    Novice JOOSE's Avatar
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    Okay so your recommending 6.25 ed starting on day one of cycle to pct?>

  7. #7
    Novice JOOSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mc Win View Post
    Here is why my friend-
    Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism:

    Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (lh - leutenizing hormone - ) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - ) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH).

    The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (anabolic steroids) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum lh - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - concentrations.

    In order to avoid any unnecessary confusion, it is important to understand what the actions of Gonadatropin therapy and Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are as well as how they differ from each other and more specifically, during post cycle recovery (post cycle therapy (pct)).

    Gonadotropin Therapy:

    There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hcg). The action of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is identical to that of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - . This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of post cycle therapy (pct) is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect. In the majority of individuals with larger testes at baseline, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) alone is sufficient in restoring endogenous testosterone production as well at the induction of spermatogenesis which is most likely a result of residual FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - secretion. Once there is a plateau in the response to hcg, treatment with an FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to hcg.

    *The addition of an FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparation is rarely required and is best suited for severe cases of HH. FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparations are not readily available to most individuals. Therefore, there is no need to go into details with respect to its application at this time.

    hcg is administered by subcutaneous (SC) or intramuscular (IM) injection. The average (3ml 22-25G x ***8541;-1½”) syringe is adequate for IM injections but insulin syringes (½-1ml 28-30G x ½-1”) are recommended for SC injections. In regards to effectiveness, there should be no discernable difference between either of the techniques. The individual should opt for the most comfortable and/or convenient form of administration.

    The following is a description of the available preparations by Serono:

    hcg ampoules are supplied in 500, 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 1 ml of sterile dilluent. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F) and should be used immediately after reconstitution.

    hcg multidose vials are supplied in 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 10 ml of bacteriostatic water. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F), refrigerated (2-8 degrees C or 36-46 degrees F) after reconstitution and used within 30 days.

    Other manufacturers are available and preparations may vary.

    The terms international units (IUs) can occasionally cause confusion when reconstituting and measuring hcg. The actual process is quite elementary and the concentration per ml (cc) is dependant on the concentration of the lyophilized powder and the volume of dilluent used for reconstitution. For example, if you dilute 5,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) with 5ml (cc) solvent, the end result is 1,000 IUs per ml (cc). Divide the same 5,000 IUs with 10 ml (cc) and the end result is 500 IUs per ml (cc).

    *bacteriostatic water should always be utilized during reconstitution when long term (30 day) storage and multi dose administration are required.

    Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators:

    Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) such as Clomiphine (Clomid) and Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) increase pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - secretion in secondary manner by blocking estrogen negative feedback on the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - . On average, this is not strong enough by itself to counteract the severe imbalance of the androgen:estrogen ratio that is encountered post cycle, especially in the presence of testicular atrophy. Therefore, SERMs are used during post cycle therapy (pct) primarily as an anti estrogen and to continue the stimulation of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - after Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) has been discontinued.

    Nolvadex is widely available in 10 mg or 20 mg tablet preparations and Clomid is available in 50 mg tablet preparations.

    Before Beginning post cycle therapy (pct):

    It is highly recommended to establish baseline blood values before beginning a cycle. The same principle applies to establishing post cycle blood values, which are necessary for evaluating recovery. Post cycle blood work should be obtained approximately 4 weeks after the cessation of post cycle therapy (pct) in order to determine accurate readings. Additional blood work should be performed when applicable and/or required.

    The following are Fasting blood values:

    Hormone

    1. Cortisol, Total
    2. Estradiol, Extraction
    3. Prolactin
    4. lh - leutenizing hormone -
    5. FSH - follicle stimulating hormone -
    6. T3, Free
    7. T4, Free
    8. TSH
    9. testosterone, Total, Free and Weakly Bound
    10. Hemoglobin A1C
    11. Fasting insulin
    12. Somatomedian C (optional)

    Cardiovascular

    13. CBC
    14. Comprehensive ********* Panel
    15. Lipid Panel

    Other

    16. GGT Important Liver Value not included in Comp ********* Panel

    When to begin post cycle therapy (pct):

    On average, begin post cycle therapy (pct) approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin post cycle therapy (pct) 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.

    Keep in mind, pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning post cycle therapy (pct). This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known “crash” effect.

    *As previously mentioned, the actions of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system.

    post cycle therapy (pct) Protocol(s):

    1.) 1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    2.) 1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    3.) 1,500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    4.) 1,500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

    Option one can be considered as a standard post cycle therapy (pct) protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.

    *The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire post cycle therapy (pct) at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.

    hcg During Cycle:

    hcg in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.

    Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning post cycle therapy (pct). This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage.

    Leydig Cell Desensitization:

    Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the lh - leutenizing hormone - receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the post cycle therapy (pct) to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.

    The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing hcg's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

    Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:

    Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - . Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing anabolic steroids. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will more than likely need to be addressed during post cycle therapy (pct). In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery. Blood work is imperative in evaluating the effectiveness of therapy. This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary.

    *There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing anabolic steroids. Although not absolutely necessary and considering the necessary restoration of physiological estrogen values, there is sufficient evidence which suggests that aromatase inhibitors can improve and increase recovery rates.

    Unsuccessful post cycle therapy (pct):

    In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).

    This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.

    Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual’s response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.

    Ongoing Argument(s):

    Hypothetically speaking, if testicular function and volume have been maintained during cycle with hcg, SERMs are then utilized to counteract the imbalance in the androgen:estrogen ratio encountered post cycle as the exogenous androgens diminish. This results in the prevention of estrogenic side effects while increasing pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - secretion which in turn increases testosterone production.

    There is nothing wrong with using a commonly referred to protocol which recommends 250-500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 1-2x/wk to be incorporated throughout the cycle. However, a significant cause for concern in regards to this protocol relates to the cessation of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) once the cycle has completed and from that point on, the only substances used during post cycle therapy (pct) are SERMs which consist of Nolvadex and/or Clomid. Realistically, there is absolutely no guarantee that this formula prevents testicular atrophy to the extent where the overall volume and function of the testes are in an optimal state. Unfortunately, a large majority of individuals do not realize or are not aware that Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur with prolonged or high dosage Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage. Therefore, users which follow this protocol whom do not incorporate Nolvadex or an aromatase inhibitor are now susceptible to Leydig cell desensitization which may render Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage post cycle ineffective when and if needed.

    During conservative cycles, there is substantial evidence which exists that supports the effectiveness of the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle and SERMs only post cycle protocol, especially when proper estrogen and prolactin management has been incorporated. However, this conclusion is much more difficult to achieve on heavy or prolonged cycles. Testicular volume should be maintained to an acceptable extent but that does not necessarily result in an improved recovery as severe HTPA suppression still exists which is not immediately repairable through the usage of SERMs.

    The most common argument here when incorporating Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during post cycle therapy (pct) is that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) itself is suppressive. This is true and one particular way this occurs is though the constant binding of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) which disrupts the endogenous pulsatile secretion of lh - leutenizing hormone - . A recent study which included the usage of 250 mcgs Ovidrel (rHCG) 2x/wk for 12 weeks demonstrated that the patients resumed normal hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - function within four weeks upon cessation, without the usage of SERMs. What’s even more interesting is that 250 mcgs rHCG is the equivalent of approximately 5,000 IUs uHCG. Therefore, putting things into perspective, a few additional weeks of suppression is nothing to be overly concerned about compared to and considering the 12 weeks of suppression incurred during the average cycle. The usage of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during post cycle therapy (pct) is a minimally intrusive variable where the benefits clearly exceed the associated costs.

    Conclusion:

    post cycle therapy (pct) should begin after the last injection and/or anabolic steroids intake. More specifically, a relative guideline to begin post cycle therapy (pct) is within 5-10 days when using long acting esters or 1-3 days when using short acting esters. This post cycle therapy (pct) protocol should consist of 1,000-1,500 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 3x/wk (mod/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and, if necessary, 50-100 mgs Clomid ED. The mid/intermittent cycle protocol of 500-1,000 IUs Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively can and should be utilized when necessary during prolonged (12+/wks) or heavy dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In addition, blood work should be performed before beginning a cycle and after completing a cycle in order to establish baseline values and evaluate recovery, respectively.

    If recovery is unsuccessful, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is continued with an adjustment in dosage and frequency as necessary until the increase in testicular volume and function have been achieved which is unlike the more typical, yet incorrect belief that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is only to be used for a short period of time. Once there is a plateau in the response to hcg, treatment with an FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added at a starting dose of 75-150 IUs on alternate days. This continual usage is not necessary and avoidable in most cases by utilizing the mid/intermittent protocol previously mentioned, but it is much more common and less avoidable with long term (1+/yr) users, whom have not taken the suggested preventive measures, and/or improper recovery from previous cycles regardless of which protocol is chosen.

    With the usage of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle, your androgens are elevated but well below that of supraphysiological concentrations from exogenous hormones. In addition, a noteworthy difference is that the effect is through a direct stimulation of testicular production compared to the secondary nature of SERMs in conjunction in the presence of testis that are not guaranteed to be in an optimal functioning state. Upon completion, blood work will display significantly higher levels of lh - leutenizing hormone - , FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - and testosterone in this environment which includes Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and SERMs during post cycle therapy (pct) versus Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle and SERMs only during post cycle therapy (pct). This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. In conclusion, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) should always be included during post cycle therapy (pct) in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery.
    Okay so your telling me to run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle therapy (pct). So will 500 ius twice a week post cycle therapy (pct) be okay to run? is that reasonable and do i really need nolvadex. cant i just run clomid and hcg

  8. #8
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    Do not run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during your post cycle therapy (pct). While on cycle 500ui and 500ui ed for 10 days after last pin.

  9. #9
    Novice JOOSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersafado View Post
    Do not run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during your post cycle therapy (pct). While on cycle 500ui and 500ui ed for 10 days after last pin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mc Win View Post
    I would keep your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for your post cycle therapy (pct). Your not taking a big enough dose to have to do it during. Also once your done your cycle, what will you use for post cycle therapy (pct). Clomid alone isint enough IMO. I would run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and clomid for post cycle therapy (pct). The aromisin is perfect during. Will keep sides minimal. Just make sure u stop taking it befor you start your pct.
    see what i mean by everyone is telling me different options lol

  10. #10
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    Not to be an ass, but this phil mcwin i'm pretty sure is new to AAS and only has 34 posts. Probably shouldn't be handing out advice quite yet. I would do during cycle personally but both would work.

    Here is a link to one of his posts. I'm not trying to call this person out but you should pay attention to who is giving advice.

    My cycle of test enanthate
    Last edited by MeatHead96; 09-07-2011 at 06:25 PM.

  11. #11
    Novice Phil Mc Win's Avatar
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    Just helping out. Read the information I posted, its a very good read. From that and other sources decide. But dont bade your desicion off of sumones oppinion. There needs to be prouf as to why you should do it that way.

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    The amount of posts doesnt mean anything. Now if you read what i posted, im open to a discution over it. Because it clearly explain the use of Hcg.With the usage of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle, your androgens are elevated but well below that of supraphysiological concentrations from exogenous hormones. In addition, a noteworthy difference is that the effect is through a direct stimulation of testicular production compared to the secondary nature of SERMs in conjunction in the presence of testis that are not guaranteed to be in an optimal functioning state. Upon completion, blood work will display significantly higher levels of lh - leutenizing hormone - , FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - and testosterone in this environment which includes Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and SERMs during post cycle therapy (pct) versus Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle and SERMs only during post cycle therapy (pct). This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. In conclusion, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) should always be included during post cycle therapy (pct) in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery.
    Last edited by Phil Mc Win; 09-07-2011 at 06:48 PM.

  13. #13
    Novice Phil Mc Win's Avatar
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    Joose, check the protocols. Its tells you how much you need.

  14. #14
    Jacked and Tan MeatHead96's Avatar
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    Its not even that. Your on your first cycle right now and you ignored everyones advice that you were too young to cycle.

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    Talking to me or Phil?

  16. #16
    Jacked and Tan MeatHead96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOOSE View Post
    Talking to me or Phil?
    Phil. Sorry bro I didn't mean to hijack your thread. My point was to pay attention to who is giving you advice and take some with a grain of salt. I know you said that ppl were telling you different things. As far as the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) goes, its probably more of a matter of opinion. Personally I would run it through cycle like you planned.

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    Np.....Anwayz im glad to hear some more opinions now that we have a debate between doing it during pct and while on cycle....Soon ill get enough opinion to make valid decision with all points aside

  18. #18
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    Post Cycle Recovery Design


    Moderate length Cycle
    (6-8 weeks)


    For a moderate length steroid cycle (6-8 weeks) your post cycle recovery plan should last for two to three weeks due to the length of you're "on" time. Every post cycle regimen should include an Anti-estrogen drug (Femara, Arimidex, or Nolvadex) and Clomid, a drug like Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is not necessary for a cycle of this length.

    Since I recommend an anti-estrogen throughout your cycle you should already be using one to begin with, if you want during the post cycle time you can increase the dose of this slightly for a better effect. Once the steroids have cleared from your system (depends on the esters used, but you should try to get everything cleared around the same day) Clomid therapy will begin.

    Now, there are many different ways of using Clomid during Post cycle recovery, and I will outline three that I feel are very effective, and do not result in significant differences in recovery between the three.

    The first is the frontload theory (this is used if you have been using moderately high doses during your cycle), which starts the first day with 200mg+ on day one, down to 150mg, to 100mg for the rest of the first week, then down to 50mg for the next two weeks.

    The second starts with 50mg ED the first week, 100mg ED the second, back down to 50mg ED for the third (this is for a lighter dose cycle).

    The last is to use 100mg ED for two weeks post cycle. All of these work very well in there own right, and you will have to find out which one works best for your body type and also the drugs you used during the cycle.


    I came across this article. Would like anybody with experience to comment

  19. #19
    Jacked and Tan MeatHead96's Avatar
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    Too complicated, just go with simple 50/50/50/50 clomid, 40/40/20/20 nolva. post cycle therapy (pct) starts two weeks after last inject. That article is about short cycles. Yours is 10 wks which would be more of a medium length cycle. Run the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. The Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast is not necessary.

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    Not enough Aromasin. Once you start it, it should be run all the way through post cycle therapy (pct). Aromasin during PCT has been shown to help kick-start your natural test production. Might be enough Clomid if they're 50mg (I hope). Probably not enough test because you're likely to overcalculate your draw here and there and end up with a (or multiple) short pins towards the end. You have exactly enough if you pin perfect every time. Will be exactly enough Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) if you pin 500iu/week but I recommend you blast 10 days after your last test pin of 500iu ED instead if you only have 5000iu to use.

    You should always have extra of everything on hand.

  21. #21
    Novice Phil Mc Win's Avatar
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    Meathead.Did you read the information? Tell me what part you dont agree with and why. Then you can start talking about if the source is reputable. Even if you run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on cycle, your still going to be shut down by the end of your cycle. You need Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to send a strong message to your hypothalamus to produce its own test agian quickly. But theres no right answer.. you will recover with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on cycle and clomid and nolva pct.. it will just take longer. Also your post is false. You cant prevent testicular atrophy. You can only make it less shut down. No matter what when you take a dose of test your body wont produce the same amount during as befor. Thats a fact.
    Last edited by Phil Mc Win; 09-09-2011 at 03:42 AM.

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