(Forum for members to discuss the use of anabolic steroids)
Nolvadex vs. Clomid
which better in post cycle therapy (pct), clomid or nolvadex? and what r the reason...state researches if possible plz
- Rep Power
Its hard to get info sometimes on here i have found.
here is all the info your looking for... have a good read.
Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.
Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.
Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.
Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.
Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.
It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.
Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.
Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below).
This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.
Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids, the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.
Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.
When To Take Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.
As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.
The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol, Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.
Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks
How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.
How to take Nolvadex for PCT
As an alternative to Clomid, which has been reported to have led to unwanted side effects such as visual disturbances in some users, Nolvadex can be employed. Nolvadex is a trade name for the drug Tamoxifen. Like Clomid, the half life of Nolvadex is relatively long enabling the user to implement a single daily dosing schedule. Administration would start as per the timescales outlined above and the duration would be identical to that of Clomid.
Typically, for a moderate-heavy cycle, the following dosages would be used:
Day 1 - 100mg
Following 10 days - 60mg
Following 10 days - 40mg
Occasionally, heavier cycles containing perhaps Nandrolone (Deca) or Trenbolone which by definition are particularly suppressive of the HPTA, may require a slightly longer therapy. Likewise, more modest/shorter cycles may require lower dosages, perhaps dropping each by 20mg per day.
Some users like to use both Clomid and Nolvadex in their PCT in an attempt to cover all angles. An example of the dosages involved might be:
Day 1 - Clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 40mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg or Nolvadex 20mg
Of course, the examples provided are not set in stone and may be adjusted depending on the factors outlined above and individual variances.
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).
Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.
HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.
From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500IU and 1000IU per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
It is important for the HCG administration to have been completed with 6 or 7 clear days before the onset of PCT in order to avoid inhibition of the Nolvadex and/or Clomid therapy. Also, a small daily dose (10-20mg) of Nolvadex would normally be used in conjunction with HCG in order to prevent oestrogenic symptoms caused by sudden increases in aromatisation.
Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.
Summary and Presentation of Clomid and HCG
Clomid and/or Nolvadex are more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid and/or Nolvadex therapy.
Clomid is available in 50mg tablets most commonly, but also comes in 25mg capsule, often in boxes of 24 tablets. Tamoxifen is made by a number of manufacturers and comes in 10mg or 20mg tablets, most commonly 30 x 20mg tablets. HCG generally comes in kits of three ampoules of powder needing to be mixed with the provided injectable water as 1500IU, 2500IU or 5000IU per ampoule kits.
HOW TO PROPERLY CYCLE OFF STEROIDS WHILE KEEPING YOUR GAINS
By: Jonathan Deprospo
The biggest pit fall many people encounter when using a cycle of steroids is the course of action taken once the cycle is complete. Many people will start a cycle without fully researching the topic of steroid cycling for bodybuilders, and the intricate details seem to get left behind.
Bodybuilders and weight lifting enthusiasts in gyms around the world will hop on a cycle of steroids without even knowing what the word Anti-estrogen means (although more and more people are starting to see the merit of using these drugs) and when the side effects hit, all the blame goes to the drugs that they took and not the fact that they poorly planed their cycle.
Every cycle you embark on should be properly planed for the goals that you wish to achieve, and you should also have the necessary drugs for post cycle and also during cycle for estrogen control.
This will make a difference like night and day compared to using steroids without any auxiliary drugs.
Employing an anti-estrogen during your cycle to control estrogen related water retention, and gynecomastia is a must, and I feel people shouldn't embark on a course of anabolic/androgenic steroids without using a drug for this purpose.
When finishing your cycle an anti-estrogen should continue to be used during your recovery phase because of the fact that your testosterone levels will be very low at this point, and you will have an elevated level of estrogen hormone in your system.
By using an anti-estrogen during this time, you will be able to keep your estrogen levels to a minimum so you will avoid post cycle side effects such as water retention, gynecomastia, depression, sickness, and acne.
At the same time you must employ a drug to help raise your testosterone levels to a normal level as quickly as possible. By using a drug for this purpose you will be able to retain the majority of your gains made on your cycle when the cycle is complete, and avoid the loss of gains from coming off AAS.
In this article I will outline the different drugs used for the two purposes mentioned above. The first is Anti-Estrogens rated from the most effective, to the least effective. I will then discuss the two drugs used to raise testosterone levels back to normal. And finally I will outline a few different post cycle protocols that will help you minimize side effects from your cycle, and also help you to keep your gains made while on ASS while avoiding the dreaded "post cycle crash."
(from most effective to least effective)
Arimidex or Femara
Arimidex is an anti-aromatize drug used while on anabolic/androgenic steroids to help prevent water retention (edema) and Gynecomastia (bitch tits) build up that is a common side effect of using drugs such as synthetic testosterone and androgenic drugs. Arimidex's mechanism of action is by blocking the aromatize enzyme, which will block the production of the hormone estrogen.
This drug is also used for the weeks after your cycle while on a post cycle therapy regimen for the same purpose for using it while on the AAS. Arimidex has a half-life of 3 days, so many will administer it everyday (ED) to every other day (EOD). If it is being used everyday most bodybuilders will use .25mg to 1mg, and if used EOD .5mg to 1mg is the recommended dose. This will vary if you are using other anti-estrogens while using the Arimidex, and also the amount you are willing to use due to the cost of the drug.
Femara has very similar characteristics as Arimidex, but some believe that it is more effective at estrogen control. Most users report no water retention what so ever while using this drug, and in some studies it is shown to slightly raise IGF-1 levels, unlike a drug like Nolvadex, which has been shown to decrease them slightly. The normal dose for Femara is 2.5mg ED to every third day during cycle and also during post cycle recovery periods.
Novadex is usually employed during cycles of Anabolic/Androgenic steroid cycles due to the fact that the hormone estrogen will become elevated from the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. When this problem arises many male bodybuilders will use Nolvadex to combat feminization symptoms such as gynecomastia, increased fat deposition, and also high levels of water retention.
For the most part though, Nolvadex is used to prevent gynecomastia build up. This is because Nolvadex acts on the estrogen receptors of the effected body tissue, so in turn it will prevent the bonding on the estrogen hormone to the receptor on the tissue.
Unlike Arimidex and Femara, Nolvadex does not act as an anti-aromatize drug, but rather acts as an estrogen antagonist. This drug will not prevent the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. It will only fight it at the receptor level. This right here goes to show why drugs like Arimidex and Femara are far more superior drugs to use during a cycle than Nolvadex.
Nolvadex is a very effective drug to use when discontinuing your steroid cycle due to the fact that it will help reduce the side effects from the elevated levels of estrogen in your body. When you come of steroids the relationship between the levels of testosterone compared to estrogen become "out of whack" so to speak.
Since you have discontinued the steroids your testosterone levels will become severely reduced, which in turn will raise your estrogen levels to become the dominant hormone in your system. This is a very good time to use a drug such as Nolvadex to combat this problem.
Doses of Nolvadex should range from 20mg.-40mg. Per day. If you are using it post cycle without a drug such as Arimidex I would suggest using 40mg. ED to EOD. If you are using it during your cycle for gynecomastia prevention 20mg. ED should suffice. Prices of this drug are usually fairly reasonable compared to Arimidex or Femara, but I still feel Nolvadex doesn't compare to drugs such as Arimidex or Femara.
Proviron is a strange drug due to the fact that it has many different uses in the bodybuilding world. In this article the main feature I will discuss is its effective properties as an anti-estrogen during a steroid cycle.
Proviron is used during a cycle of steroids because it acts as an anti-estrogen in that due to the drug's unique structure it has a higher affinity to the aromatize enzyme than testosterone, but at the same time it does not convert to estrogen.
This in turn means that if you administer Proviron with testosterone, Proviron will bind to the aromatize enzyme very strongly, which will not allow the testosterone to convert to estrogen and bind with the receptor. This will prevent the usual estrogen build up seen with testosterone like compounds.
Due to Proviron's mechanism of action, using steroids and employing Proviron will prevent the estrogenic side effects and water retention seen while using some of the more androgenic steroids. It has also been noted that Proviron will increase levels of testosterone during a cycle. The mechanism of action for this effect is difficult to explain, but it allows for more of the synthetic testosterone employed during your cycle to be used more efficiently, and not be converted to the hormone estrogen.
Proviron is seen to be effective at dosages from 25mg all the way up to 150mg. For the reasons discussed in this article 25mg to 50mg ED is sufficient for its purpose. Another aspect worth mentioning is that Proviron should not be used post cycle. Proviron should only be used during a cycle because it is an androgen, and when coming of Proviron you could experience some negative effects with your body's natural testosterone levels.
The cost of this drug is very reasonable, so it could be a good addition to your next cycle to prevent estrogen build up.
Clomid is using in the bodybuilding community as a testosterone stimulant. This drug is used when you end a cycle of steroids to help bring your natural levels of testosterone back up to normal. Clomid's mechanism of action occurs through the hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis (HPTA).
Clomid is used to stimulate the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that a faster and higher release of FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) occurs. By doing this, the result is an elevated endogenous (body's own) testosterone level. Needless to say this is a very important aspect when coming off a cycle of steroids and should always be employed to bring your testosterone levels back up to normal.
Clomid is usually used once you finish a cycle of steroids, and it is employed for the 2-3 weeks following it. The recommended dose of Clomid is 50mg to 100mg ED, although some will opt to do a high front load (200mg+) on the first day and continue to taper down as the days go on.
HCG is a unique drug used by male bodybuilders because of the fact that it can mimic the hormone LH (luteninizing hormone) in the body. LH is the hormone that is responsible for making testosterone in the testicles. Bodybuilders use HCG during long cycles due to the fact that after sometime on testosterone mimicking hormones the testicles will stop producing testosterone due to the use of a synthetic testosterone-mimicking drug.
HCG has significant applications to the steroid using bodybuilder due to the fact that it can help bring testosterone levels back to normal levels. This is where many will opt to employ HCG for the last 3-4 weeks of a steroid cycle.
A very important fact to note is that while using HCG you must use a drug such as Nolvadex or Clomid, and one of these (preferably both) should be used for the 2-3 weeks after using HCG, or you could end up where you started with low testosterone levels once again.
Another important aspect to note is that HCG should not be used for more than a 3-4 week period and it should also not be used at very high doses, because this could desensitize the testicles to LH, and could leave you back in a bad position.
Typically HCG is used for the 3-4 weeks towards the end of a long cycle of steroids to raise natural testosterone levels in the testicles. HCG should be administered every 5 days to every 3 days (if you opt to use it more frequently doses should be adjusted accordingly) with the first shot in the last week of your cycle.
If you opt to go every five days the first two shots should be around 3000 IU, then the second two should be 1500 IU. It would be very wise to use Nolvadex during this time, and Clomid should be using following the HCG for 2-3 weeks along with the Nolvadex.
Post Cycle Recovery Design
Moderate length Cycle
For a moderate length steroid cycle (6-8 weeks) your post cycle recovery plan should last for two to three weeks due to the length of you're "on" time. Every post cycle regimen should include an Anti-estrogen drug (Femara, Arimidex, or Nolvadex) and Clomid, a drug like HCG is not necessary for a cycle of this length.
Since I recommend an anti-estrogen throughout your cycle you should already be using one to begin with, if you want during the post cycle time you can increase the dose of this slightly for a better effect. Once the steroids have cleared from your system (depends on the esters used, but you should try to get everything cleared around the same day) Clomid therapy will begin.
Now, there are many different ways of using Clomid during Post cycle recovery, and I will outline three that I feel are very effective, and do not result in significant differences in recovery between the three.
The first is the frontload theory (this is used if you have been using moderately high doses during your cycle), which starts the first day with 200mg+ on day one, down to 150mg, to 100mg for the rest of the first week, then down to 50mg for the next two weeks.
The second starts with 50mg ED the first week, 100mg ED the second, back down to 50mg ED for the third (this is for a lighter dose cycle).
The last is to use 100mg ED for two weeks post cycle. All of these work very well in there own right, and you will have to find out which one works best for your body type and also the drugs you used during the cycle.
(4 months or more)
For a long cycle of 12 weeks or more your post cycle recovery plan should first start out with HCG. Your HCG therapy should begin during the last week of your cycle before you come off. Also, needless to say during this time you should be using an anti-estrogen to combat estrogenic side effects. HCG should be administered in four shots starting the last week of your cycle continued on to the two weeks following.
So your post cycle HCG should look like this: 3000 IU on day one, another 3000 IU 5 days later, 1500 IU 5 days later, and following up with another 1500 IU 5-7 days after that, equaling out to three weeks total.
After finishing the HCG therapy Clomid should be administered along with the anti-estrogen for two to three weeks after the HCG making your post cycle therapy a total of four to five weeks. For the Clomid therapy I believe that 100mg ED for the two to three weeks should be sufficient, although if you want you could use one of the protocols listed in the moderate length cycle section.
This article gives a very complete overview of how to construct a very effective post cycle regimen. Many people skip out on anti-estrogens due to cost and also availability, and then complain later about the steroids causing side effects such as water retention, loss of sex drive, gyno, and acne.
No cycle should start with out having the proper anti-estrogens on hand, and you should also have you post cycle drugs before you start your cycle in case for some reason you can't get them once you come off.
This happens to many people and then they are kicking themselves in the rear when the side effects hit. I hoped I provided valuable information with this article that can help people have more effective cycles while minimizing any of the side effects that are sometimes very common with steroid use.
Thanks for posting, good news to read up on for a noob like me.
Great Post!!!! Should make it a stickie
- Rep Power
Very useful post Long_2010, thanks!
nolva and clomid work well together for PCT, but I would say from experience clomid is much more effective on it's own... nolva alone for PCT would be a risk in my mind to run for PCT as it very well might not do enough
- Rep Power
I have read in many forums that said nolva should not be used during deca and test cycles.. Is that a true statement? I'm in my third week and already started feeling sensitive in the nipples and feels like a small lump already forming itself with soreness do that kind of freaks me out. Is it safe to use nolva at all? Am I too late or is it reversible? Already ordered som liquidex and letro but should be here in a week. Should I start using them instead of nolva or just wait? Please advice. Thanks
Originally Posted by Long_2010
Ive heard the some people think nolva and Clomid could make you more prone to progesterone sides from the deca or tren. You could grab some caber or prami too.
Originally Posted by kevin2590
Lotsa info on Clomid there but didnt have nearly as much on nolva
- Rep Power
I know. I wish I could find some solid answers to all these questions but I guess nobody know everything for sure
It's my understanding that the no deca/nolva thing is for while on cycle. Like back when people were using 20mg nolva a day to combat estro sides, instead of AI's. But that it's okay in PCT.
Originally Posted by kevin2590
I have had one person tell me this, I believe it was bigherm, idk. It's in my thread titled "Second Cycle Opinions Please"
Just like you need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to reduce E2 you need a DA like caber or prami to reduce prolactin. a SERMs only block the estro to your tits. you want to solve the root of the issue.
Originally Posted by kevin2590
- Rep Power
Oh ok. I got to do some research on the other ones you ve mentioned. I have no knowladge about caber or prami. Thank you for your help again. Highly appreciated.
The test is causing you to have high e2 and the deca is going to give you more prolactin. they say if you keep e2 in check then prolactin should be ok. looks like you didnt have an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to begin with which is a huge mistake and prob have both e2 and prolactin sides. always have an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) even if you dont need it. should have it just in case.
Originally Posted by kevin2590
- Rep Power
As I found out today by asking around. My biggest mistake was to use gel instead of an actual test injections therefore deca is shutting me down. I'm getting some sus 250 tomorrow so hopefully that should put everything back to normal of course with the use of liquidex. I hope the company where I ordered the liquidex is legit and I can get my stuff soon if not I'm screwed.
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