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  1. #1
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    Default Jump Start Test attempt -- too much aromasin?
    Total test levels are 12.2 on a range of 7-30.... so about 340ish I believe is the conversion.

    Trying to jump start natural test and was suggested the following:

    Wk 1: 1500iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) x 2 (1500iu mon, 1500iu thurs), 25mg of Aromasin per day
    Wk 2: 1500iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) x 2 (mon, thurs), 25mg of Aromasin per day
    Wk 3: 1000iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) x 2 (mon, thurs), 25mg of Aromasin per day
    Wk 4: 1000iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) x 2 (mon, thurs), 25mg of aromasin per day
    Wk 5: 100mg of clomid per day (50mg in the morning, 50mg in the evening), 25mg of Aromasin per day
    Wk 6: 50mg of clomid in the evening, 25mg Aromasin per day
    Wk 7: Same as week 6
    Wk 8: 25mg of Aromasin per day


    I guess the idea is that the Aromasin is to keep the estro in check while on HCG........
    and after the HCG, an attempt to maintaining tets levels with clomid for about 3 weeks (and finished off with more Aromasin).


    Opinions on this? Det-Oak, you're the man

    Too much aromasin? too much HCG?

  2. #2
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    anyone at all?

  3. #3
    Senior Moderator Teutonic's Avatar
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    Are you trying to jump start alone or is this with a doc s scripts?

    Oak is asleep I bet.

    Yankee carpet bagger s don t rise with the chicken s like us poor working folks.

    If on your own are you post cycle or trying to increase natty tests..which you really cant..I tihnk.
    Age 50
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    Cancer comeback

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teutonic View Post
    Are you trying to jump start alone or is this with a doc s scripts?

    Oak is asleep I bet.

    Yankee carpet bagger s don t rise with the chicken s like us poor working folks.

    If on your own are you post cycle or trying to increase natty tests..which you really cant..I tihnk.
    According to my doc, my test level of 12.2 in a range of 7-30 is normal. Im 26 years old.... I looked at her with a WTF look and she said "well, its in the range"

    So Id be on my own... My last cycle was done 9 months ago, it was test prop, tren, winny... I did PCT after it with Nolva/Clomid. Trying to avoid testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), so figured Id give everything a shot before jumping on that bandwagon

  5. #5
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    I was about to do the same thing, you won't need to extend out so many weeks nor do the mon/th injections. What wad recommended to me was more along the lines of 1000iu/day then get blood work to see if test serum and free test are elevated then go right inti clomid 50mg/day for 4weeks

  6. #6
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    1000iu/day every day? for how long? No AI?

  7. #7
    Olympian Bodybuilder
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    HCG is supressive to you HPTA not a good move imo.

  8. #8
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    Doesnt hcg acts independently of the hpta?

    From the studies Ive gone through, a majority of them use HCG to bring the testes back to size, and then hit with a SERM like clomid. Atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone

    But I do believe Det-Oak mentioned that it only makes up about 10% of your testicles size...



    Would love some more info on this
    Last edited by Flav; 04-19-2011 at 03:48 PM.

  9. #9
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    double post

  10. #10
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
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    its going to be trial and error brother. if you want to run HCG then do a SERM run 500 ED or 1,000 EOD. that should be plenty to get you going. i dont like the twice a week thing unless its in conjunction with testosterone.

    do this for 2-3 weeks and have your blood test done while on the HCG. This will tell you if your testicles are producing T as they should, if they are stop HCG and wait 4-5 days and start Clomid/nolva combo or start torimefene/nolva combo. I would like to try torem, I hear it works great. Too bad I cant come off T long enough to try it !!! lol
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  11. #11
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
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    1st i would try just clomid at 50 mg for 3-4 weeks and get rechecked , im not sure about running the hcg off cycle.
    NOT ONLY IS STUPIDITY INCURABLE BUT ITS ALSO CONTAGIOUS OVER THE INTERNET.

    VAR ONLY CYCLES ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WITH A VAGINA.

  12. #12
    Rebuilding...continually Irentat's Avatar
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    Flav,
    Looks similar to some research articles written by a doc restarting shut down male endocrine systems. If I remember, they used a SERM parallel with HCG. I personally don't like Clomid as I got the side effects of blurry vision and was not near the level you are indicating. My vision issues lasted many months past PCT. Nolva?

  13. #13
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irentat View Post
    Flav,
    Looks similar to some research articles written by a doc restarting shut down male endocrine systems. If I remember, they used a SERM parallel with HCG. I personally don't like Clomid as I got the side effects of blurry vision and was not near the level you are indicating. My vision issues lasted many months past PCT. Nolva?
    what mg of clomid did you run?
    NOT ONLY IS STUPIDITY INCURABLE BUT ITS ALSO CONTAGIOUS OVER THE INTERNET.

    VAR ONLY CYCLES ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WITH A VAGINA.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irentat View Post
    Flav,
    Looks similar to some research articles written by a doc restarting shut down male endocrine systems. If I remember, they used a SERM parallel with HCG. I personally don't like Clomid as I got the side effects of blurry vision and was not near the level you are indicating. My vision issues lasted many months past PCT. Nolva?
    I think you're referring to Dr. Scally's article, below?

    STREET C, SCALLY MC. Pharmaceutical Intervention of Anabolic Steroid Induced
    Hypogonadism - Our Success at Restoration of the HPG Axis. Medicine and Science in Sports
    and Exercise 2000;32(5)Suppl.


    High-dose anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) administration results in hypogonadotropic
    hypogonadism (HH). Physical manifestations can include one or more of the following:
    depression, decreased sexual desire, impotence, feelings of apathy, testicular atrophy, and loss of
    muscle mass and strength. Due to feedback inhibition, laboratory values drop well below
    established physiologic norms: luteinizing hormone (LH) >3.6 IU/L, follicle stimulating
    hormone (FSH) >2.25 IU/L, and testosterone (T) >300 ng/dL. A search of the literature reveals
    an absence of studies dealing specifically with AAS induced HH, and restoration of normal
    endocrine function. We report on two interesting cases of AAS using bodybuilders who were
    brought out of the hypogonadal state. Blood samples were taken in the morning for both subjects
    and analyzed using chemiluminescence (Quest Diagnostics, Irvine, TX). Post-therapy samples
    were taken 15 days after the last hCG injection.

    Case 1: 6'0" 206 lbs. 33 yr old Caucasian male
    with a 10+ year history of steroid self-administration for bodybuilding and powerlifting. By his
    own admission he was a "heavy" user, taking from 500 mg/wk to 2+ grams/wk. Pre-treatment
    values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 191 ng/dL. One course of therapy (32 days) was given: 2,500 IU of
    hCG every 4 days (8 injections total), 50 mg clomiphene bid and 10 mg tamoxifen qd. Despite
    massive drug use patient was an exceptionally good responder. Post-treatment values: LH 5.2
    IU/L, T 1072 ng/dL.

    Case 2: 5'10" 184 lbs 36 yr old Caucasian male with a 2 yr history of
    continuous nandrolone use (200-400 mg/wk). Pre-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 45 ng/dL.

    Treat 1
    (32 days): 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (8 total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and arimidex (1 mg qd).
    Post-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 38 ng/dL.

    Treat 2 (60 days): 5,000 IU hCG every 4 days (4 inj
    total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (4 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen
    (10 mg qd). Post-values: LH > 1.4 IU/L, T 63 ng/dL.

    Treat 3 (32 days): 5,000 IU hCG qod (6 inj
    total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG qod (6 inj total) given simultaneously with menotropins 150 IU
    qod (6 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen (10 mg bid). Post-values: LH 9.8 IU/L,
    T 507 ng/dL.

    Restoration of the HPG axis, even in severe cases of hypogonadism, is possible
    with combined therapies and careful monitoring of the patient. With continued popularity of
    these drugs, long-term androgen deficiency is a health concern for former AAS users. Further
    research is needed in this area.

  15. #15
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
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    I have seen this many times. this is the old way, in his new book he goes over the things he changed in his protocol. He now suggest's QOD dosing and not running SERM in conjunction with HCG.
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  16. #16
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    Follow what oak is telling you. He is the man when it comes to this subject. It will be trial and error as noted but he has explained the trial part to you. I am a fan of high dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) when it comes to restarting the system. Once there is more info availiable on triptorelin, I think it will be a great addition, but I to am at a point were I don't know if I will come off test long enough to use it.

  17. #17
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    Alright, every other day dosing of HCG, then have bloods checked. If Test levels are elevated, wait 4-5 days and hit it with clomid...


    Oak, to be on the safe side, would running an A.I (Aromasin) while running the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) be beneficial to help maintain estrogen?

  18. #18
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
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    yes with it and with the SERM as well-25mg ED
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    yes with it and with the SERM as well-25mg ED
    Boom, good stuff.
    How do I buy this man a beer?

  20. #20
    Jackpot
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    One more question for those who are educated on it...

    My TSH levels came back at 3.38 in a range of 0.35-5.00. While its in the range, I know this range has been recently updated to something more along the lines of 0.35-3.00, which would put me outside the range...

    Can this is any way be realted to my low test levels? Ive had an MRI done (for something unrelated)... no tumors or anything like that

  21. #21
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
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    honestly lh and fsh reading are not very accurate on blood test-need urinalysis for that.
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  22. #22
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    That was about TSH (Thyroid)

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