Anabolic steroids, bodybuilding discussion forums. - Steroidology

rui products
 

(Forum for members to discuss the use of anabolic steroids)

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 50 of 50
  1. #26
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Here is my "Bro-lore" from Dr. Crisler

    "But theres another ********* reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three ********* pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed."

    There are numerous studies backing up his claim, I guess you will figure it out when YOU learn more about HCG.

    I will back later to prove how HCG up regulates the GNRH receptor.
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 01-26-2011 at 03:37 PM.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  2. #27
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Performance View Post
    If you havent started the cycle yet, then run hCG 250iu E4D during the cycle.

    -Eric
    This is just atrocious to me, you recommend a dose MUCH lower than your OWN reference supports.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  3. #28
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    HCG densensitization from DR. Michael Scally
    HCG desensitization DOES NOT occur clinically. Anyone who says it does, does not know the literature, is trying to advance a myth, and probably believes in the hCG diet! Can hCG desensitization occur? Absolutely. There are many animal models demonstrating this effect, but, again, this effect is NOT seen clinically in FDA approved doses or less. Is there evidence for hCG desensitization in humans for hCG doses higher than FDA approved levels? Indirectly, a single (just one thats why you couldnt post any back up to your claim) study in does over 5,000 IU exploring testicular response to hCG administration reveals a leveling of T production.

    hCG administration does stimulate estradiol and progesterone production. In fact, the estradiol rise occurs before the T rise.

    The article "van Bergeijk L, Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, de Vries CP. Effects of short- and long-term administration of tamoxifen on hCG-induced testicular steroidogenesis in man: no evidence for an oestradiol-induced steroidogenic lesion. Int J Androl 1985;8(1):28-36,: cited as support does nothing of the sort. This is a vain attempt to confuse the issue and by hopefully presenting a peer-reviewed article to win the argument. It ain't gonna work!

    According to the abstract, the study examines the effect of tamoxifen hCG-induced testicular steroidogenesis. They do not use a model of hCG desensitization. The study is exploring a "local" effect of estradiol on T production. In fact, if you even give the slightest thought the study is about hCG desensitization, the study would not work!!! Duh . . . If the cells were desensitized to hCG, they would not produce estradiol or T, thus NO study on tamoxifen effects.


    Another study (abstract below) cited by another forum is "Tang P-Z, Tsai-Morris CH, Dufau ML. Regulation of 3{beta}-Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase in Gonadotropin-Induced Steroidogenic Desensitization of Leydig Cells. Endocrinology 1998;139(11):4496-505." THIS IS A STUDY IN RATS!!! This expert is so desperate to prove him/herself. they cite rat studies. If we were to translate this study to humans, which is fraught with so many pitfalls, the easiest method is by dose (IU/kg). The dose for the rats is 100-125 IU/kg. For a 75 kg human, this would be 7,500 IU or more. A dose more than FDA approved, used clinically, and what they claim to cause hCG desensitization.


    3{beta}-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase/{Delta}5-{Delta}4 isomerases (3{beta}-HSD) are enzymes that catalyze the conversion of {Delta}5 to {Delta}4 steroids in the gonads and adrenal for the biosynthesis of sex steroid and corticoids. In gonadotropin-desensitized Leydig cells, from rats treated with high doses of human CG (hCG), testosterone production is markedly reduced, a finding that was attributed in part to reduction of CYP17 expression. In this study, we present evidence for an additional steroidogenic lesion induced by gonadotropin. Using differential display analysis of messenger RNA (mRNA) from Leydig cells of rats treated with a single desensitizing dose of hCG (2.5 {micro}g), we found that transcripts for type I and type II 3{beta}-HSD were substantially (5- to 8-fold) down-regulated. This major reduction, confirmed by RNase protection assay, was observed at the high hCG dose (2.5 {micro}g), whereas minor or no change was found at lower doses (0.01 and 0.1 {micro}g). In contrast, 3{beta}-HSD mRNA transcripts were not changed in luteinized ovaries of pseudopregnant rats treated with 2.5 {micro}g hCG. The down-regulation of 3{beta}-HSD mRNA in the Leydig cell resulted from changes at the transcriptional level. Western blot analysis showed 3{beta}-HSD protein was significantly reduced by hCG treatment, with changes that were coincidental with the reduction of enzyme activity and temporally consistent with the reduction of 3{beta}-HSD mRNA but independent of LH receptor down-regulation. The reduction of 3{beta}-HSD mRNA resulting from transcriptional inhibition of gene expression, and the consequent reduction of 3{beta}-HSD activity could contribute to the inhibition of androgen production in gonadotropin-induced steroidogenic desensitization of Leydig cells. The gender-specific regulation of 3{beta}-HSD by hCG reflects differential transcriptional regulation of the enzymes to accommodate physiological hormonal requirements and reproductive function

    In case the readers did not notice this is the same study PP is referencing in its atricle to back up its "desensitization theory".......................
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 01-26-2011 at 05:08 PM.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  4. #29
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Doses of 250iu E3D with Dr. Scally
    I am a proponent of hCG use during testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) or cycling. The question is the dose. I have written often that 250 IU is inadequate. I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

    The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.

    This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.

    In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.






    During AAS administration, the purpose of hCG can be to maintain testes size, testosterone synthesis, and/or spermatogenesis. They are not the same. For simplicity, cycling is to maintain testosterone synthesis. Do you want this to be at a near maximal rate or minimal rate? The answer to this will provide the answer for the hCG dose.

    The use of 250 IU is a waste of time and money. I am willing to administer 500 IU Q3D (every three days), although, 1000 IU Q3D is probably more worthwhile. Remember, the idea is to STIMULATE MAXIMALLY T synthesis, not tickle it!!! During PCT, I use hCG 2,000-2,500 IU QOD. hGH has been shown to stimulate T synthesis.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  5. #30
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    0
    If I was running this particular cycle and wanted to do a post cycle therapy (pct) after I would wait till the end of the 4th week beginning of the 5th week. that will give your body time to have most of the aas close to being completely out of your system. Then I would start taking 1 mg arimidex every day, every 3rd or 4th day I would be using hcg at 1500 for three weeks. I wouldn't use the nolva unless I had a problem mid cycle I'm not a fan of it post cycle and I don't like clomid at all.

  6. #31
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Dr. Scally specializes in ASIH (anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism)

    He has helped thousands of patients recover their HPTA. What is your reason for going aginst his writings that 250iu E4D is a waste of time an money?

    You are not allowed to use the desensitization crap until you can actually prove that it happens IN MALES.

    Please do not resort to posting studies on animals because i have numerous studies showing that the action of HCG is specie's specific.

    This time instead of just giving me your opinion you can actually back up your recommendations with some sort evidence.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  7. #32
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by moremuscleplease View Post
    If I was running this particular cycle and wanted to do a post cycle therapy (pct) after I would wait till the end of the 4th week beginning of the 5th week. that will give your body time to have most of the aas close to being completely out of your system. Then I would start taking 1 mg arimidex every day, every 3rd or 4th day I would be using hcg at 1500 for three weeks. I wouldn't use the nolva unless I had a problem mid cycle I'm not a fan of it post cycle and I don't like clomid at all.
    This is an ancient protocol, if you would like to use this yourself that is fine, but please keep it to yourself.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  8. #33
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    0
    I just wouldn't use it during my cycle. The reason I would use it this way is because I know that it works its cost effective. I've done cycles many different ways and I find it to be very effective. mind you most of the guys I know and train with now don't even bother coming off at all anymore. Any thing that I am willing to post up is because I've tried it and not just thought about it, or read an article or two.

  9. #34
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by moremuscleplease View Post
    I just wouldn't use it during my cycle. The reason I would use it this way is because I know that it works its cost effective. I've done cycles many different ways and I find it to be very effective. mind you most of the guys I know and train with now don't even bother coming off at all anymore. Any thing that I am willing to post up is because I've tried it and not just thought about it, or read an article or two.
    HCG is suppressve to your endogenous T production.

    All your doing with your adex is crashing your estrogen, not a smart move at all my man.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  10. #35
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    0
    I'll try and find the study again man but the one that I read was talking how arimidex has the ability to increase your natural test leves by up to 50% in the first 3 days of administering. That is the reason that I usually opt for that and the hcg all I've ever read is that it will increase your natural production in the short term but if used long or too high a dose will surpress it. But I will for sure read your info sources. I don't claim to be an expert I just wish to offer up what I have tried and read to have worked as well as what I have learned from my trainer. I'm just here to learn and try to help as well.

  11. #36
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    arimadex DOES NOT raise T production it only raises T levels for a short period of time.

    Think of it as a tetor totter, its not letting your T convert to estrogen so therefore T levels will be automatically higher. Your body will eventually regulate this action by halting T production.

    The reason why adex can be used for post cycle therapy (pct) is because you are erasing ALL of your estrogen. Your body needs estrogen, most of the receptors are in your joints, this is why your joints will hurt during this time. Estrogen is also responsible for some brain function so haveing 0 will give you headaches.

    Your body then realizes it has no estrogen, the only way it can produce more is by creating T to convert to estrogen. SO moderate doses will not help the HPTA recover, but high doses and letting your estro crash will.

    although this works it is not good for you at all.

    The best way would be to use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) along with a SERM to recover. The problem with adex and letro is their action will be SUBSTANTUALLY inhibited by the use of a SERM in conjunction. This is why Aromasin is the recommended Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to use during SERM therapy. Aromasin is not affected by the use of a SERM.
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 01-26-2011 at 05:03 PM.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  12. #37
    Amateur Bodybuilder Primordial Performance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    531
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    HCG desensitization DOES NOT occur clinically. Anyone who says it does, does not know the literature, is trying to advance a myth, and probably believes in the hCG diet! Can hCG desensitization occur? Absolutely. There are many animal models demonstrating this effect, but, again, this effect is NOT seen clinically in FDA approved doses or less. Is there evidence for hCG desensitization in humans for hCG doses higher than FDA approved levels? Indirectly, a single (just one thats why you couldnt post any back up to your claim) study in does over 5,000 IU exploring testicular response to hCG administration reveals a leveling of T production.

    hCG administration does stimulate estradiol and progesterone production. In fact, the estradiol rise occurs before the T rise.

    The article "van Bergeijk L, Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, de Vries CP. Effects of short- and long-term administration of tamoxifen on hCG-induced testicular steroidogenesis in man: no evidence for an oestradiol-induced steroidogenic lesion. Int J Androl 1985;8(1):28-36,: cited as support does nothing of the sort. This is a vain attempt to confuse the issue and by hopefully presenting a peer-reviewed article to win the argument. It ain't gonna work!

    According to the abstract, the study examines the effect of tamoxifen hCG-induced testicular steroidogenesis. They do not use a model of hCG desensitization. The study is exploring a "local" effect of estradiol on T production. In fact, if you even give the slightest thought the study is about hCG desensitization, the study would not work!!! Duh . . . If the cells were desensitized to hCG, they would not produce estradiol or T, thus NO study on tamoxifen effects.


    Another study (abstract below) cited by another forum is "Tang P-Z, Tsai-Morris CH, Dufau ML. Regulation of 3{beta}-Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase in Gonadotropin-Induced Steroidogenic Desensitization of Leydig Cells. Endocrinology 1998;139(11):4496-505." THIS IS A STUDY IN RATS!!! This expert is so desperate to prove him/herself. they cite rat studies. If we were to translate this study to humans, which is fraught with so many pitfalls, the easiest method is by dose (IU/kg). The dose for the rats is 100-125 IU/kg. For a 75 kg human, this would be 7,500 IU or more. A dose more than FDA approved, used clinically, and what they claim to cause hCG desensitization.


    3{beta}-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase/{Delta}5-{Delta}4 isomerases (3{beta}-HSD) are enzymes that catalyze the conversion of {Delta}5 to {Delta}4 steroids in the gonads and adrenal for the biosynthesis of sex steroid and corticoids. In gonadotropin-desensitized Leydig cells, from rats treated with high doses of human CG (hCG), testosterone production is markedly reduced, a finding that was attributed in part to reduction of CYP17 expression. In this study, we present evidence for an additional steroidogenic lesion induced by gonadotropin. Using differential display analysis of messenger RNA (mRNA) from Leydig cells of rats treated with a single desensitizing dose of hCG (2.5 {micro}g), we found that transcripts for type I and type II 3{beta}-HSD were substantially (5- to 8-fold) down-regulated. This major reduction, confirmed by RNase protection assay, was observed at the high hCG dose (2.5 {micro}g), whereas minor or no change was found at lower doses (0.01 and 0.1 {micro}g). In contrast, 3{beta}-HSD mRNA transcripts were not changed in luteinized ovaries of pseudopregnant rats treated with 2.5 {micro}g hCG. The down-regulation of 3{beta}-HSD mRNA in the Leydig cell resulted from changes at the transcriptional level. Western blot analysis showed 3{beta}-HSD protein was significantly reduced by hCG treatment, with changes that were coincidental with the reduction of enzyme activity and temporally consistent with the reduction of 3{beta}-HSD mRNA but independent of LH receptor down-regulation. The reduction of 3{beta}-HSD mRNA resulting from transcriptional inhibition of gene expression, and the consequent reduction of 3{beta}-HSD activity could contribute to the inhibition of androgen production in gonadotropin-induced steroidogenic desensitization of Leydig cells. The gender-specific regulation of 3{beta}-HSD by hCG reflects differential transcriptional regulation of the enzymes to accommodate physiological hormonal requirements and reproductive function

    In case the readers did not notice this is the same study PP is referencing in its atricle to back up its "desensitization theory".......................
    So your saying that you believe 500iu E3D is superior to 250iu E4D like I recommend? Thats what you've been meaning to say the whole time?

    Obviously, your going to get different opinions from different authorities referencing different data from different studies.

    I'm actually working with Dr. Scally right now on several articles. Ill ask him about why he thinks there is no desensitization in the leydigs from hCG, because it certainly occurs in clinical practice and this is in hypogonadal men that dont have low testosterone levels to begin with!

    If you want a human study, i suggest you check this out -
    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression -- Coviello et al. 90 (5): 2595 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism

    Notice how the 250iu is about 95% as effective as the 500iu. That should tell you something about the dose response relationship. I took this a step further with the increased sensitivity theory from frequency reduction, thus my recommendation for 250iu E4D.

    -Eric

  13. #38
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Listen you keep skurting the issue at hand. Its not the fact that you recommend too low of a dose, its more of a case that your entire article is based on the fact that desensitization occurs in clinical doses, and im sorry but it just doesnt. take desensitization away from you and the entire article needs to be re-written. I will look at your study in a minute but i have a feeling it will simply discuss the refractory period due to the biphasic pattern of HCG, I have studied this extensively.

    things like using low doses because of desensitization, taking 2 weeks off of HCG before starting SERM treatment, that stuff goes out the window until you can prove desensitization.
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 01-26-2011 at 07:27 PM.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  14. #39
    Novice
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    5
    The-det-oak owned this thread, if hcg was a immigrant girl trying to get her green card by marrying an american, she would have to choose the-det-oak to pass the "were a real couple" test

  15. #40
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Performance View Post
    Ill ask him about why he thinks there is no desensitization in the leydigs from hCG, because it certainly occurs in clinical practice and this is in hypogonadal men that dont have low testosterone levels to begin with!-Eric
    Like i said you keep saying this but have yet to produce 1 single shred of eveidence.

    This is because it is hear say. It is a myth.

    I would be polite when asking Dr. Scally about desensitization because he gets very offended when people try to advance that myth, that is one of his biggest problems with Dr. Crisler
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  16. #41
    Amateur Bodybuilder Primordial Performance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    531
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    Listen you keep skurting the issue at hand. Its not the fact that you recommend too low of a dose, its more of a case that your entire article is based on the fact that desensitization occurs in clinical doses, and im sorry but it just doesnt. take desensitization away from you and the entire article needs to be re-written. I will look at your study in a minute but i have a feeling it will simply discuss the refractory period due to the biphasic pattern of HCG, I have studied this extensively.

    things like using low doses because of desensitization, taking 2 weeks off of HCG before starting SERM treatment, that stuff goes out the window until you can prove desensitization.
    Right, so because there is no peer reviewed reference it must not happen in real life...

    Hey do birds fly? Nope, no bird study to prove this, must not be true!

  17. #42
    Amateur Bodybuilder Primordial Performance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    531
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    Like i said you keep saying this but have yet to produce 1 single shred of eveidence.

    This is because it is hear say. It is a myth.

    I would be polite when asking Dr. Scally about desensitization because he gets very offended when people try to advance that myth, that is one of his biggest problems with Dr. Crisler
    Dr Scally is welcome to have his opinions. We actually disagree about quite a few things, but I still respect his point of view and experience.

    The evidence is in the animal research and clinical result that I see on a daily basis. The fact that this isnt valuable to Dr. Scally doesn't change my logic on the mater.

    -Eric

  18. #43
    Amateur Bodybuilder Primordial Performance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    531
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swan View Post
    The-det-oak owned this thread, if hcg was a immigrant girl trying to get her green card by marrying an american, she would have to choose the-det-oak to pass the "were a real couple" test
    Considering the oak just learned what GNRH was today I certainly wouldn't be taking drug advice from him...

  19. #44
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    well if you believe in science based medicine than you cant go on a wimb my friend.

    doctors hand out 5,000 iu doses all the time. HCG has been studied extensively now due to TRT. If it was happening someone would have intitiated a study.

    Whoever told you that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients lose sensitiviy to HCG has obviously never dealt with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  20. #45
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Performance View Post
    Considering the oak just learned what GNRH was today I certainly wouldn't be taking drug advice from him...
    thats really funny that you think i learned that today. It also even funnier that you dont really know much about it. I have been discussing HCG and its effects on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients for some time now, and it definately does some things at the pitutary that you are apparently unaware of since you recommend users drop their HCG 2 FULL weeks before SERM treatment.................

    Maybe since your such a smart ass, and a wizard on HCG, you could enlighten us to exactly why HCG tends to make you "feel good"? or why users report a "sense of well being"?

    Maybe you can explain to us laymen why testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients that have no libido suddenly do after adding HCG to their TRT?

    I mean after all it wasnt until today that you realised HCG stimulates action that actually provides the raw material for testosterone right?
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 01-26-2011 at 09:30 PM.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  21. #46
    Amateur Bodybuilder Primordial Performance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    531
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    Whoever told you that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients lose sensitiviy to HCG has obviously never dealt with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients.
    no one "told me".

    I get about a dozen emails a week on this type of thing. "Hey Eric, Ive been using hCG for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) at XXX dose and its not keeping my T levels up anymore..."

    Common sense tells me its desensitization.

    -Eric

  22. #47
    Amateur Bodybuilder Primordial Performance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    531
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    thats really funny that you think i learned that today. It also even funnier that you dont really know much about it. I have been discussing HCG and its effects on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients for some time now, and it definately does some things at the pitutary that you are apparently unaware of since you recommend users drop their HCG 2 FULL weeks before SERM treatment.................

    Maybe ince your such a smart ass, and a wizard on HCG, you could enlighten us to exactly why HCG tends to make you "feel good"? or why users report a "sense of well being"?

    Maybe you can explain to use why testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients that have no libido suddenly do after adding HCG to their TRT?

    I mean after all it wasnt until today that you realised HCG stimulates action that actually provides the raw material for testosterone right?
    Right.

    I think I made my point here. Ill let you have the last word on this. You guys can email me if you need any help.

    eric@primordialperformance.com

  23. #48
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Performance View Post
    no one "told me".

    I get about a dozen emails a week on this type of thing. "Hey Eric, Ive been using hCG for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) at XXX dose and its not keeping my T levels up anymore..."

    Common sense tells me its desensitization.

    -Eric
    There are tons of studies on HCG, its just that not one of them show this "leveling of T levels" that you speak of.

    Im not saying the guys emailing dont have a problem but I think its time to stop blaming it on HCG.
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 01-26-2011 at 10:24 PM.

  24. #49
    IncreasedMyT @ ULV THE-DET-OAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    10,189
    Rep Power
    22
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 01-26-2011 at 10:03 PM.
    Need TRT? >>>>>>> Call IMT >>>>>>>>>Real Programs, Real Results

    IncreaseMyT.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 866-206-9926

  25. #50
    Junior Bodybuilder fognozzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    South of the Mason Dixon
    Posts
    179
    Rep Power
    4
    Wow, that was a trip! I didn't know jack about Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), that's why I searched about it and found this thread. Thanks guys for an extremely entertaining and informative thread. I believe there is good info to be gleaned from both sides of this spirited debate. I understand the common sense idea that HCG is responsible for desensitization. However, the direct clinical evidence linking the two, I did not find. Thanks guys for upping my IQ a few points!!! For what it's worth, my next cycle will include the higher dose all the way through to just b4 PCT.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
  1. By Ozzy27 in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-21-2012, 05:14 PM
  2. By juiceman2027 in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 03-15-2012, 03:07 PM
  3. By Primordial Performance in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 06-29-2010, 07:54 PM
  4. By StoneColdNTO in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 12-16-2006, 06:11 PM
  5. By Brendon in forum Anabolic Steroid Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-22-2004, 04:56 PM
Tags for this Thread
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  

3Js Nutrition Network

juicepump







mr supps



need to build muscle

3Js Nutrition Network

need to build muscle