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  1. #1
    I am banned! Drveejay11's Avatar
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    Question Use of T-3 in conjunction with HGH
    I recall a recent inquiry from a memebr stating that he read over at CEM that it's counter-productive to run T-3 with GH as it inactivates HGH to a degree.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bimmer's Avatar
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    This is JMO and is not a fact but in theory it would. Gh builds while T# breaks down. Since your metabolism is going you nutrients are being used so they are not as availble for growth. Its like using Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) to prevent muscle loss while dieting with T3.

  3. #3
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    Re: Use of T-3 in conjunction with HGH
    Originally posted by Drveejay11
    I recall a recent inquiry from a memebr stating that he read over at CEM that it's counter-productive to run T-3 with GH as it inactivates HGH to a degree.

    Thoughts?
    i am very interested in knowing more about this topic also. i have always seemed to have decent fat burning effects with GH alone...however i would like to know if the 2 could be run in conjunction, or if it would be counter productive.

    great question Drveejay11!!

    god bless

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    HGH induced hypothyroidism. Think of it this way. HGH turns your body, from a carb burning machine, into a fat burning machine. This slows the metabolism down. T3 (cytomel) or Armour compensates. Just ask the guys and gals who stack these for fat loss.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by DrJMW
    HGH induced hypothyroidism. Think of it this way. HGH turns your body, from a carb burning machine, into a fat burning machine. This slows the metabolism down. T3 (cytomel) or Armour compensates. Just ask the guys and gals who stack these for fat loss.
    so Doc you would recommend it?

    god bless

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    I recommend it all the time. Keep daily cytomel doses at or below 50mcg. Take before breakfast. Use it as long as you are using the HGH. Forget about pyramiding. So far, no reported problems.

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by DrJMW
    I recommend it all the time. Keep daily cytomel doses at or below 50mcg. Take before breakfast. Use it as long as you are using the HGH. Forget about pyramiding. So far, no reported problems.
    awesome! thanks for clearing that up Doc!

    god bless

  8. #8
    Community Veteran JohnnyB's Avatar
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    What about the IGF-1 binding proteins that were mentioned on the CEM article. Is that avoided because it's a low dose?

    JohnnyB

  9. #9
    I am banned! Drveejay11's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JohnnyB
    What about the IGF-1 binding proteins that were mentioned on the CEM article. Is that avoided because it's a low dose?

    JohnnyB
    ^ (JB: do you have that CEM thread handy?)

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    : do you have that CEM thread handy?)
    i would like to see this aswell -- i was told by many that t3 and gh run together is a no no--

    if i can burn that much more fat by running them together -- this kid will be doing so

  11. #11
    Community Veteran JohnnyB's Avatar
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    I'll get it

    JohnnyB

  12. #12
    Community Veteran JohnnyB's Avatar
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    Here's the excerpt

    Countering T3 induced muscle loss with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) or prohormones makes sense from a physiological viewpoint as well. Thyroid hormone muscle protein breakdown is mainly mediated via the so-called ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. (12). (There are several independent ********* pathways of protein breakdown in the body. For instance, another pathway, the lysosomal pathway, is responsible for the accelerated rate of muscle protein breakdown during and after exercise.) Testosterone administration has been shown to decrease ubiquitin-proteasome activity. (13) So Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) specifically target the muscle protein breakdown process stimulated by T3.

    What may not be an effective strategy to maintain muscle mass during a T3 cycle is the use of exogenous growth hormone (GH). Studies have shown that when GH and T3 are administered concurrently, the increased nitrogen retention normally associated with GH use is abolished. This has been attributed to the observation that T3 increases levels of insulin like growth factor binding protein, reducing the bioavailability of igf-1 (14). Nevertheless, GH has fat burning properties independent of igf-1, so using GH with T3 would act additively to speed fat burning, but with little if any preservation of lean body mass. So again, if GH is used in conjunction with T3, anabolic steroid/prohormone use would be indicated.

    The article is here, http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/
    it's called "Thyroid Hormone for Weight Loss: Physiologic and ********* Effects
    by Nandi"

    JohnnyB
    Last edited by JohnnyB; 02-06-2004 at 08:40 PM.

  13. #13
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    WOW........great post JB. Its implications on these bb'ing forums is significant IMO (for GH users). Thanks

  14. #14
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    I've made some significant inquiries on this subject. Nandi originally posted that T3 is contraindicated with gh. Nandi is pretty much at the top of the pharmacology knowledge food chain IMO.

    Here is the link to one of the follow up threads I started on the topic, which includes quotes of some of the studies and thoughts Nandi posted on the subject.

    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...owth+and+Nandi

    Here is the thread copied and pasted:

    CONTEST ENTRY - Should T3 be added to a cycle of GH and androgens?
    Title of the post:

    Maybe we shouldn't run T3 with GH

    Nandi's apparent opinion on this runs counter to what most people advice. I wanted to get some more input on the subject and see if it could be fleshed out.

    I posted this on 10-28-2003 at http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/...73&m=2073043357


    Thoughts on this?

    Here is one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.


    "There is another study I like a lot; it took me a minute to dig the xerox copy out of my files. They looked at combinations of T3, T3 plus GH, and T3 plus anavar on weight loss and nitrogen retention in several subjects. As an illustrative example, in their patient #4, for 12 days with a washout period between treatments, they gave either T3 (150 mcg/day); T3 plus GH (5 mg/day = 15 IU/day) or T3 plus anavar (10 mg/day)

    The weight loss in gm/day was as follows:

    T3: 513 gm/day; T3+GH: 107gm/day; T3+anavar: 100gm/day

    The nitrogen excretion in gm/3days was:

    T3: 37; T3+GH: 32; T3+anavar: 26; placebo: 32

    So just like in the other study on combining T3 and GH, you can see that here the nitrogen excretion of the T3+GH was exactly the same as placebo. In other words, the T3 cancelled all anabolic benefit of the GH. Giving T3 and anavar @ 10mg/day gives almost the same weight loss as GH+T3, but preserves much more lean body mass.

    It makes no sense to combime GH and T3. Combining T3 with a low dose of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) is a much wiser strategy for losing weight and preserving muscle

    J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1971 Aug;33(2):293-300

    Effects of triiodothyronine, growth hormone and anabolic steroids on nitrogen excretion and oxygen consumption of obese patients.

    Bray GA, Raben MS, Londono J, Gallagher TF Jr."



    Here is another one of his posts from the same thread, at http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Fo...ighlight=growth



    There are a couple of things about the second study I find interesting. One is how much weight these obese patients were losing on the T3: over a pound a day.

    The other thing is how the GH interfered with the weight loss. That is a feature of a number of other studies where large doses of GH were used; in this one 15 IU/day. Insulin resistance becomes an important factor hindering weight loss at those large GH doses. Normally the insulin like effect of IGF-1 helps by lowering the endogenous output of insulin to some degree. IGF-1 as the name implies has an insulin like effect on glucose metabolism, but without interfereing with lipolysis like insulin. So in the presence of elevated IGF-1, the body secretes less insulin, improving fat loss. The problem here I suspect is that by impairing bioavailability of IGF-1, as T3 has been shown to do, the T3 negated the fat burning effect of GH.

    Water retention caused by GH is a big factor as well. This is an old study (1970) so when measuring weight loss during GH administration, they did not have access to the sophisticated equipment available today to accurately measure changes in muscle and fat mass. They probably just weighed the subjects and because of the GH induced water retention it looks like they were not losing as much fat as they possibly were.



    Here is another one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.

    T3 and GH use are incompatible. T3 elevates levels of IGF binding protein to the point that they render IGF-1 unbioavailable.

    J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9

    Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.

    Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.

    Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.

    BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.


    T3 blocks IGF-1 in the liver. Read Nandi's article on t3 that will explain it better then I ever could.

    http://www.steroidology.com/forum/s...highlight=nandi
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    Fonz

    Nuclear Wizard
    posted 10-28-2003 04:24 PM
    One thing Nandi fails to mention.

    AAS lower T3 levels(Specially Fina) thats how the exert most of their anti-catabolic effects.

    Adding T3 at a low dosage will simply bring your T3 levels back up to normal. Nothing more.
    We are not talking about supra-physiological dosing, just optimization.

    Adding a low dosage of T3 while on AAS+GH is a good idea. Now, if its only GH+T3, thats a different story. I would not run T3 while only on GH. I would run 7-Keto DHEA instead of the T3. Maybe even an ECA stack to increase peripheral T4-T3 conversion.

    GH also gives you a mild case of insulin resistance(As do some AAS), therefore adding R-ALA is definately a good idea as well.

    Fonz

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    Ulter

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    posted 10-28-2003 05:49 PM
    I really don't know of anyone using GH and T3 alone, that I can think of. It's good to know there is a reason not to do it, and why though.
    I would never suggest to anyone to use T3, GH or no GH, without AS.
    Posts: 10492 | From: Orlando Florida | Registered: 11-09-2000



    the truth
    In ferro veritas
    posted 10-28-2003 08:20 PM
    Am I reading the summation of the results of the first study wtong, or did the total fat loss from T-3 alone blow away the combinations T-3/GH and T-3/var?
    Posts: 289 | Registered: 02-13-2001



    Fonz

    Nuclear Wizard
    posted 10-28-2003 08:33 PM
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by the truth:
    Am I reading the summation of the results of the first study wtong, or did the total fat loss from T-3 alone blow away the combinations T-3/GH and T-3/var?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Not fat loss but WEIGHT loss.

    You can bet a chunk of that is muscle tissue.

    Placebo(Unitrogen) = 32
    T3(Unitrogen) = 37

    5/32 = 15.6% increase in nitrogen loss.

    523gm/day = 1.16lbs/day(I do not believe this)

    They must have been quite fat, or they didn't eat even a carrot.

    So, 12 days at 150mcgs T3/day = 1.16(12) = 13.92lbs weight loss.

    I have never seen anybody lose that much weight with T3 before(150mcgs/day is not really THAT much).

    Fonz

    "Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people"

    ---- Fonz 6/2002
    Posts: 1770 | From: Mojave Desert, Nevada | Registered: 02-17-2001



    RefuseToLose

    AF Member
    posted 10-28-2003 11:01 PM
    150mcg without gear is a lot of T3 though....I think if they had a study with a little more hGH and maybe 12.5mcg or 25mcg or maybe even 50mcg of T3 per day the results would be much more favorable.

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    the truth
    In ferro veritas
    posted 10-29-2003 06:56 PM
    Even taking the lean tissue loss into account, the difference in fat loss would be much greater in the T-3 only group according to those figures.

    I don't think that weight loss of a pound a day is unheard of.

    It's interesting that there was no group using T-3 and a very androgenic AAS.


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    11-03-2003 08:17 AM



    Nandi12




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    quote:
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    One thing Nandi fails to mention. Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) lowers T3
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    This is essentially another bodybuilding myth. Please ask the person who made the statement about tren lowering BIOAVAILABLE T3 to produce the research. I have read the studies, of which there are a grand total of two on tren in animals, and only total T4 was examined. This is not the same as free T4. Anabolic steroids lower thyroid binding globulin, which lowers total thyroid hormone levels. However, the body compensates by increasing thyroid hormone production, keeping free T3/T4, ie the bioavailable fraction, normal.

    I have done a meta-analysis of all published studies on the effects of androgens/AAS on thyroid function. It will be out not this month in Mind & Muscle but in the subsequent issue. Here is a passage from the study:

    "Can we make any sense out of the seeming hodgepodge of conflicting data? The only parameters that are consistent from study to study, where they were measured, are depressed total T3 and T4, and TBG. As we have discussed, androgens typically lower TBG, along with total T4 and T3 since the latter are a function of TBG levels...In conclusion then Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) seem to have little if any effect on thyroid function per se.

    "The reports by Deyssig & Weissel, and Daly et al suggest the possibility of a direct action of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) on the thyroid or pituitary, but their results are inconsistent: The former researchers detected elevated stimulated TSH while the latter saw an increase in basal TSH. Free T4 was unchanged in former group, while it was elevated in the latter. The only consistently reported effect is a depression in total T4, total T3 and TBG. If there is a direct effect of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) on the thyroid, pituitary, or hypothalamus the studies conducted so far shed little light on the mechanism due to their inconsistent results. And as stressed by Deyssig & Weissel any direct effect of anabolic steroids on the thyroid would likely be of no clinical significance due to its small magnitude."

    In the total medline database there are eight studies where the effects of androgens/AAS on free thyroid levels were examined. Only one of those studies showed a small clinically insignificant drop in free thyroid hormones. Two actually showed an increase in free thyroid hormones, again clinically insignificant. The remainder showed no effect.

    I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.



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    11-03-2003 09:00 AM



    big_byrd52



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    Go to Bottom of Page OK, so we know not to use t3 with GH only, but should it be used when taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and GH?



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    12-20-2003 02:36 PM



    Big Cat




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    quote:
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    Originally posted by Nandi12
    This is essentially another bodybuilding myth. Please ask the person who made the statement about tren lowering BIOAVAILABLE T3 to produce the research.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Look at who made the statement ...


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    12-21-2003 10:08 AM



    JohnnyB




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    quote:
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    Originally posted by big_byrd52
    OK, so we know not to use t3 with GH only, but should it be used when taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and GH?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You answered your own question Bro

    JohnnyB


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    12-21-2003 10:56 AM



    big_byrd52



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    Go to Bottom of Page Hey JB, so thats a yes with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and Gh? thats what i thought but want to be sure.



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    12-21-2003 02:34 PM



    JohnnyB




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    Go to Bottom of Page Yes it is Bro, t3 and hgh not a good idea, adding Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) wouldn't make a difference. But it doesn't hurt to ask that's for sure

    JohnnyB


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    12-21-2003 03:18 PM



    big_byrd52



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    Go to Bottom of Page JB, i am saying it IS a good idea, u are saying NO. the reason i am thinking that it is good is because the tests show that the N excretion is lowered with the anavar+t3. then Nandi made this statement:

    I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.

    Wont using the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) along with the GH/t3 offset catabolism and allow for optimum fat loss?



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    12-22-2003 12:23 AM



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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by big_byrd52
    Nandi made this statement:

    I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.

    Wont using the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) along with the GH/t3 offset catabolism and allow for optimum fat loss?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bro it the igf-1 binding protein that your trying to avoid with the t3/hgh combo. That's way you use hgh to get your igf-1 up, with t3 putting out a igf-1 binding protein it's counter productive. What Nandi's trying to say is instead of t3/hgh use AAS, because all you'll get is weight loss and no muscle preservation with t3/hgh just weight loss

    JohnnyB


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    Last edited by JohnnyB on 12-22-2003 at 03:27 AM

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    12-22-2003 03:23 AM



    big_byrd52



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    Go to Bottom of Page ok i get it now, thanks for clearing that up for me.



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    12-22-2003 01:35 PM



    saint808




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    Go to Bottom of Page on paper yes... with real life experience... not so sure.


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    12-22-2003 02:41 PM



    JohnnyB




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    quote:
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    Originally posted by saint808
    on paper yes... with real life experience... not so sure.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On which one the t3/hgh or the addition of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) to it?

    JohnnyB


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    12-23-2003 05:56 AM



    saint808




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    Go to Bottom of Page t3/hgh... i think with the right combination of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) that it would yield good results.


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    12-23-2003 06:28 AM



    big_byrd52



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    Go to Bottom of Page to what extent does the t3 bind up BP3? is the difference very significant or just a little. i would think the diff is negligable, and by adding it to the mix would help keep or get u lean.



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    12-23-2003 11:54 AM



    JohnnyB




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    Go to Bottom of Page I think the only problem with t3/hgh is the igf-1 binding protein. So if your looking to loss weight it'd work it just an expensive fat burner(hgh) from what I understand. If you using the combo for mass gains with the igf-1 binding protein you might not get much out of it.

    But like you said that's on paper it may pan out different in the real world. I don't have the kind of money it takes to do an experiment though, so I have to go with what's on paper for now.

    JohnnyB

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    ok boys,
    it's late where i am, and i am a little punchy.....
    we are saying NO to T-3/GH combo correct?

    god bless

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    I am banned! Drveejay11's Avatar
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    TREV: thanks, I missed this!!!!

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    Ive have used hgh, clen , t3, test together and it was the most potent fat burner i ever did aswell the most expensive one too..

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    Yes to T3/HGH for fat burning. If your natural testos levels are low, then adding low-dose Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) will aid to prevent muscle loss. Most obese people have low, natural testos and hgh anyway. Most athletes have normal or high Testos levels, so they could go either way.

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    I concluded from all that ; yes to T3/GH with NO exogenous Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) = more fat loss as well as muscle =ing just more total combined weight loss.

    DRJMW, you are saying average or above average endogenous testotosterone would offset catabolism of muscle tissue with the t3/gh because it doesn't take very much exogenous anabolic horomone administration. i.e 200mg testo/wk = that of an above average male =/being efficient?

    Regardless of your answer blearing that up; isn't igf-1 from gh administration still negated?

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    Amateur Bodybuilder HGH Man's Avatar
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    DRJMC, suppose your on syntroid for a tyroid deficiency. But according to results from bloodwork your tyroid is within normal ranges. Could you do it then ?

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    Originally posted by Drveejay11
    TREV: thanks, I missed this!!!!
    I'm still not satisfied. Nandi's position seems compelling and supported by the studies, but it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. What do you think?

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    Originally posted by Trevdog
    I'm still not satisfied. Nandi's position seems compelling and supported by the studies, but it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. What do you think?
    Trev: For me personally, HGH is definitely still somewhat newer frontier material with which I have spent LITTLE time researching mainly d/t disinterest in ever using the stuff b/c of all the original mention of its cancer-causing ability(claims).

    Now, I no longer believe these claims as they are unsupported IMO; and therefore would like to explore what gh can do for me. I have spent some time in this area alone. My knowledge of GH is too "basic" at this point; so my opinion here would only be speculative at best.......although I am reading up on this stuff as we speak.

    PAGING......IRONMASTER!!!!!! ARE YOU THERE????

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    Novice Stillgoing's Avatar
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    Great topic and one that no good consensus has been reached on any board that I have seen. Bump for ironmaster.

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    Regardless of your answer clearing that up; isn't igf-1 from gh administration still negated?

    Probably not, based on blood test results I have seen. The future of controlling IGF-1 levels in aging adults will be the use of Long R3. I just don't believe that HGH administration will keep levels up as well as Long R3. For fat burning, IGF-1 is a "non-entity." I haven't seen low-dose T3 significantly reduce IGF-1 levels. This is all clinical observation of blood tests I see.

    ...suppose your on synthroid for a thyroid deficiency. But according to results from bloodwork your thyroid is within normal ranges. Could you do it then ?

    I have had clients stop their synthroid and use Armour (a blend of T3 and T4) in its place. They have reported no problems and blood tests look normal. I wouldn't recommend synthroid users switch to cytomel, especially if thyroid blood levels are corrected with Synthroid.

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    Amateur Bodybuilder HGH Man's Avatar
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    And where do you get Armour ? I've never heard of it. Prescription only ? I can get T-3 from my source but T-4 ,no. Does it really help with HGH too? What are the benifits? Does it burn more fat ? Inquiring minds want to know ,mine ?

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