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ester chart

  1. #1
    g32
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    ester chart
    Is their any chart , that shows the steroid esters in order for example shortest to longest least anabolic to most anabolic ?

  2. #2
    Amateur Bodybuilder DUANABOL's Avatar
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    Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by g32
    Is their any chart , that shows the steroid esters in order for example shortest to longest least anabolic to most anabolic ?
    I just bumped my Steroid Ester Chart. FYI - Esters have nothing to do with the degree of anabolism, that's where the compound comes in, ex. Test, Nandrolone.

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    Olympian Bodybuilder Ozzy27's Avatar
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    Re: Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by DUANABOL
    I just bumped my Steroid Ester Chart. FYI - Esters have nothing to do with the degree of anabolism, that's where the compound comes in, ex. Test, Nandrolone.
    You beat me to it again....I was going to refer him to your post.

    Steroid Esters...good info!

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    Community Veteran JohnnyB's Avatar
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    This is from Chemical Wizardry Complete

    ESTER PROFILES

    Sustanon: The "king" of testosterone blends. The four different testosterone esters in this product certainly look appealing to the consumer, there is no denying that. But for the athlete I think it is all just a matter of marketing (Hell, why buy one ester when you can get four?). In clinical situations I can see some strong uses for it. If you were undergoing testosterone replacement therapy for example, you would probably find Sustanon a much more comfortable option than testosterone enanthate. You would need to visit the doctor less frequently for an injection, and blood levels should be more steadily maintained between treatments. But for the bodybuilder who is injecting 4 ampules of Sustanon per week, there is no advantage over other testosterone products. In fact, the high price tag for Sustanon usually makes it a very poor buy in the face of cheaper testosterone enanthate/cypionate. Bodybuilders should probably stop looking at the four ester issue, and stick with totals (Sustanon is just a 250mg testosterone ampule). Were enanthate to be available for say $10 per amp of 250mg, and Sustanon priced nearly double that, buying the Sustanon would be like throwing money away. If you could get nearly double the milligram amount for the same price with enanthate, this is the better product to go with hands down. Leave the high priced stuff for the guys who don't know any better.

    IN CONCLUSION

    While the advent of esters certainly constitutes an invaluable advance in the field of anabolic steroid medicine, clearly you can see that there is no magic involved here. Esters work in a well-understood and predictable manner, and do not alter the activity of the parent steroid in any way other than to delay its release. Although the lure surrounding various steroid products like testosterone cypionate, Sustanon, Omnadren etc. certainly makes for interesting conversation, realistically it just amounts to misinformation that the athlete would be better off ignoring. Testosterone is testosterone and anyone who is going to tell you one ester form of this (or any) hormone is much better than another one should do a little more research, and a lot less talking.

    Acetate: Chemical Structure C2H4O2.Also referred to as Acetic Acid; Ethylic acid; Vinegar acid; vinegar; Methanecarboxylic acid. Acetate esters delay the release of a steroid for only a couple of days.

    Contrary to what you may have read, acetate esters do not increase the tendency for fat removal. Again, there is no known mechanism for it to do so. This ester is used on oral primobolan tablets (metenolone acetate), Finaplix (trenbolone acetate) implant pellets, and occasionally testosterone.

    Propionate: Chemical Structure C3H6O2.Also referred to as Carboxyethane; hydroacrylic acid; Methylacetic acid; Ethylformic acid; Ethanecarboxylic acid; metacetonic acid; pseudoacetic acid; Propionic Acid. Propionate esters will slow the release of a steroid for several days. To keep blood levels from fluctuating greatly, propionate compounds are usually injected two to three times weekly. Testosterone propionate and methandriol dipropionate (two separate propionate esters attached to the parent steroid methandriol) are popular items.

    Phenylpropionate: Chemical Structure C9H10O2.Also referred to as Propionic Acid Phenyl Ester. Phenylpropionate will extend the release of active steroid a few days longer than propionate. To keep blood levels even, injections are given at least twice weekly. Durabolin is the drug most commonly seen with a phenylpropionate ester (nandrolone phenylpropionate), although it is also used with testosterone in Sustanon and Omnadren.

    Isocarpoate: Chemical Structure C6H12O2.Also referred to as Isocaproic Acid; isohexanoate; 4-methylvaleric acid. Isocaproate begins to near enanthate in terms of release. The duration is still shorter, with a notable hormone level being sustained for approximately one week. This ester is used with testosterone in the blended products Sustanon and Omnadren.

    Caproate: Chemical Structure C6H12O2.Also referred to as Hexanoic acid; hexanoate; n-Caproic Acid; n-Hexoic acid; butylacetic acid; pentiformic acid; pentylformic acid; n-hexylic acid; 1-pentanecarboxylic acid; hexoic acid; 1-hexanoic acid; Hexylic acid; Caproic acid. This ester is identical to isocarpoate in terms of atom count and weight, but is laid out slightly different (Isocaproate has a split configuration, difficult to explain here but easy to see on paper). Release duration would be very similar to isocaproate (levels sustained for approximately one weak), perhaps coming slightly closer to enanthate due to its straight chain. Caproate is the slowest releasing ester used in Omnadren, which is why most athletes notice more water retention with this compound.

    Enanthate: Chemical Structure C7H14O2.Also referred to as heptanoic acid; enanthic acid; enanthylic acid; heptylic acid; heptoic acid; Oenanthylic acid; Oenanthic acid. Enanthate is one of the most prominent esters used in steroid manufacture (most commonly seen with testosterone but is also used in other compounds like Primobolan Depot). Enanthate will release a steady (yet fluctuating as all esters are) level of hormone for approximately 10-14 days. Although in medicine enanthate compounds are often injected on a bi-weekly or monthly basis, athletes will inject at least weekly to help maintain a uniform blood level.

    Cypionate: Chemical Structure C8H14O2. Also referred to as Cyclopentylpropionic acid, cyclopentylpropionate. Cypionate is a very popular ester here in the U.S., although it is scarcely found outside this region. Its release duration is almost identical to enanthate (10-14 days), and the two are likewise thought to be interchangeable in U.S. medicine. Althletes commonly hold the belief than cypionate is more powerful than enanthate, although realistically there is little difference between the two. The enanthate ester is in fact slightly smaller than cypionate, and it therefore releases a small (perhaps a few milligrams) amount of steroid more in comparison.

    Decanoate: Chemical Structure C10H20O2.Also referred to as decanoic acid; capric acid; caprinic acid; decylic acid, Nonanecarboxylic acid. The Decanoate ester is most commonly used with the hormone nandrolone (as in Deca-Durabolin) and is found in virtually all corners of the world. Testosterone decanoate is also the longest acting constituent in Sustanon, greatly extending its release duration. The release time with Decanoate compounds is listed to be as long as one month, although most recently we are finding that levels seem to drop significantly after two weeks. To keep blood levels more uniform, athletes (as they have always known to do) will follow a weekly injection schedule.

    Undecylenate: Chemical Structure C11H20O2.Also referred to as Undecylenic acid; Hendecenoic acid; Undecenoic acid. This ester is very similar to decanoate, containing only one carbon atom more. Its release duration is likewise very similar (approximately 2-3 weeks), perhaps extending a day or so past that seen with decanoate. Undecylenate seems to be exclusive to the veterinary preparation Equipoise (boldenone undecylenate), although there is no reason it would not work well in human-use preparations (Equipoise certainly works fine for athletes). Again, weekly injections are most common.

    Undecanoate: Chemical Structure C11H22O2.Also referred to as Undecanoic Acid; 1-Decanecarboxylic acid; Hendecanoic acid; Undecylic acid. Undecanoate is not a commonly found ester, and only appears to be used in the nandrolone preparation Dynabolan, and oral testosterone undecanoate (Andriol). Since this ester is chemically very similar to undecylenate (it is only 2 hydrogen atoms larger), it has a similar release duration (approximately 2-3 weeks). Although this ester is used in the oral preparation Andriol, there is no reason to believe it carries any properties unique of other esters. Andriol in fact works very poorly at delivering testosterone, bolstering the idea that oral administration is not the idea use of esterified androgens.

    Laurate: Chemical structure C12H24O2. Also referred to as Dodecanoic acid, laurostearic acid, duodecyclic acid, 1-undecanecarboxylic acid, and dodecoic acid. Laurate is the longest releasing ester used in commercial steroid production, although longer acting esters do exist. Its release duration would be closer to one month than the other esters listed above, although realistically we are probably to expect a notable drop in hormone level after the third week. Laurate is exclusively found in the veterinary nandrolone preparation Laurabolin, perhaps seen as slightly advantageous over a decanoate ester due to a less frequent injection schedule. Again athletes will most commonly inject this drug weekly, no doubt in part due to its low strength (25mg/ml or 50mg/ml)

    JohnnyB

  5. #5
    Amateur Bodybuilder DUANABOL's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by Ozzy27
    You beat me to it again....I was going to refer him to your post.

    Steroid Esters...good info!
    Oz, you're always a step behind me bro. One of these days you'll catch up.

  6. #6
    g32
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    Thanks

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    Amateur Bodybuilder DTOX's Avatar
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    Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by g32
    Is their any chart , that shows the steroid esters in order for example shortest to longest least anabolic to most anabolic ?
    Given a single injection of the same amount:

    the longer the ester = more anabolic, less androgenic
    the shorter the ester = less anabolic, more androgenic

  8. #8
    Amateur Bodybuilder DUANABOL's Avatar
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    Re: Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by DTOX
    Given a single injection of the same amount:

    the longer the ester = more anabolic, less androgenic
    the shorter the ester = less anabolic, more androgenic
    Where the hell did you come up with this nonsense? Your statement is ridiculous! I'm not jumping on you bro, but I'd like to hear why you believe this to be true.

  9. #9
    Amateur Bodybuilder DTOX's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by DUANABOL
    Where the hell did you come up with this nonsense? Your statement is ridiculous! I'm not jumping on you bro, but I'd like to hear why you believe this to be true.
    There have been multiple articles discussing this but here's the first one I found:

    http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...oid-esters.htm

    It would have been a lot easier if they had a chart showing the log of the dose (response) as one axis and time (to correlate with the ester length) as the other. Then you could see the total volume (anabolic effect) under the curve is different depending on the ester, and not the same as might be presumed.

    Also, please note that I originally stated for a single injection for the same dosage. (As the article states, you can inject more often with shorter esters to get the same effect as less injections of a longer ester.)

  10. #10
    Amateur Bodybuilder DTOX's Avatar
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    Also, anecdotally, it explains the reason such short-esters are used when trying to obtain more androgenic results. For instance to increase agression or libido most people would use Test Suspension or Methyltestosterone tabs over using a long ester.

  11. #11
    Amateur Bodybuilder DUANABOL's Avatar
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    Re: Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by DTOX
    Given a single injection of the same amount:

    the longer the ester = more anabolic, less androgenic
    the shorter the ester = less anabolic, more androgenic
    I guess I just have a mental block or something, but I'm not getting it. Let's take the compound Nandrolone for example, which is most commonly found in NPP and Deca. NPP contains the shorter ester "phenylpropionate" and Deca contains the longer ester "decanoate." Now, according to your statement I would infer that an equivalent amount of NPP is less anabolic and more androgenic than the same amount of Deca. And an equivalent amount of Deca is more anabolic and less androgenic than the same amount of NPP. Therefore in a comparison of NPP and Deca, you're saying that NPP is more androgenic and Deca is more anabolic. I'm still having a hard time with this...it just doesn't seem to be true.

    Does anyone else have any thoughts about DTOX's statement above?

  12. #12
    Olympian Bodybuilder LAWNSAVER's Avatar
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    The article is flawed in many ways!!

    To put it in laymans terms...

    The reason why shorter esters seen more androgenic is because the actual steroid is released much faster, which in turn cause the side effects to be seen much faster.

    Now this doesnt make the shorter estered steroids more androgenic.

    Now to speak about the anabolic properites...

    Since shorter estered steorids are use mostly for shorter durations, the anabolic effect of the actual steroid doesnt have the time to do what it could over a longer peroid of time.

    Example: Lets just start by saying the same person who hypothetically is taking 500mg EW of Enanthate for 10 weeks while the same person in a parrallel universe...LOL is taking 500mg of Prop EW for 10 weeks.

    My educated guess would say that the guy taking the Prop would have better results.

    Why you ask??

    Because there is actually more raw test in the Prop. So he actually got a slightly higher dose of test over the 10 weeks

    So in summary Shorter estered steroids can appear more androgenic and less anabolic, but in actualality it is just a results of how fast the actual steroid is releaed and the duration of time it is taken!

  13. #13
    Frank Zane arby's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: ester chart
    Originally posted by DTOX
    There have been multiple articles discussing this but here's the first one I found:

    http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...oid-esters.htm

    It would have been a lot easier if they had a chart showing the log of the dose (response) as one axis and time (to correlate with the ester length) as the other. Then you could see the total volume (anabolic effect) under the curve is different depending on the ester, and not the same as might be presumed.

    Also, please note that I originally stated for a single injection for the same dosage. (As the article states, you can inject more often with shorter esters to get the same effect as less injections of a longer ester.)
    The way they define anabolic and androgen is totally and utterly misleading to the question posed by g32:

    These scientists are not using those terms in the manner which many bodybuilding authors do. The anabolic effect is measured by increase in weight of the levator ani muscle in the rat, and the androgenic effect is measured by increase in weight of the seminal vesicles and prostate. These measurements are neither perfectly indicative of muscle-building value to bodybuilders nor to any particular undesired side effect except perhaps prostate enlargement.
    This is the first I've heard of this kind of definition and it's basically BS, because, again:

    Different target organs, for example the levator ani muscle vs. the prostate, may have different solubility properties.
    So, unless you're interested in the pathophysiology of various ester chains attached to steroid hormones in rats, and specifically in the relative weights of the levator ani muscle, seminal vesicle and prostate thereof, this study is useless.

    Not surprisingly, the author of that article quickly forgets about the study he's just written about (or copy & pasted) and all of a sudden applies it to bodybuilding:

    Since keeping androgen levels constant and moderate gives a higher anabolic/androgenic ratio than using the same total amount of drug per week but allowing levels to spike and then subside, female bodybuilders are better advised to use either long acting esters, or if short acting esters are used, to inject small doses frequently (twice per half-life). And for the same reason, a given amount of oral steroids per day is better taken in divided doses than in a single larger dose.
    There's a lot of bunk info out there. That kind of oversight should have tipped you off right away.

    RB

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    Amateur Bodybuilder DUANABOL's Avatar
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    LAWNSAVER and arby, thanks a lot bros!

    That study just didn't seem right and it was messing my head up.

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    Amateur Bodybuilder DTOX's Avatar
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    I think the article and concepts make perfect sense, but I know I'm certainly in the minority here.

    I think one of the main "issues" people have with the concept is that before the argument even starts you have to agree that:

    "The body's response to steroids is not proportional to the dose, but to the log of the dose."

    That is to say, everytime you increase the dosage by 100% you will only increase the effect by 50%. So, 2g of Testosterone doesn't give twice the gains 1g of Testosterone does, it only gives 50% better gains.

    If you don't agree with that statement then obviously you're going to think the whole ester/anabolic argument is bunk.

  16. #16
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    So if the study is true then we all need to start taking Neotest (testosterone decanoate)...right??? After all it is the longest acting testosterone.
    Last edited by jobe1111; 01-07-2004 at 10:11 AM.

  17. #17
    Frank Zane arby's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DTOX
    I think the article and concepts make perfect sense, but I know I'm certainly in the minority here.

    I think one of the main "issues" people have with the concept is that before the argument even starts you have to agree that:

    "The body's response to steroids is not proportional to the dose, but to the log of the dose."

    That is to say, everytime you increase the dosage by 100% you will only increase the effect by 50%. So, 2g of Testosterone doesn't give twice the gains 1g of Testosterone does, it only gives 50% better gains.

    If you don't agree with that statement then obviously you're going to think the whole ester/anabolic argument is bunk.
    Huh? Why would anyone agree to a general statement like that? First of all, that's only true when you're calculating the theoretical half-life of the drug, and as flawed as the article is, it still only applies it in that sense. You're making some real far-reaching conclusions based on a flawed set of premises.

    In regard to your "statement," if you want to know exactly how the pharmacokinetics of steroid hormones are influenced by dose, see teh study that begins "Development of models" on this page.

    RB
    Last edited by arby; 01-07-2004 at 11:43 AM.

  18. #18
    Amateur Bodybuilder DTOX's Avatar
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    So you seriously believe:

    -2g/wk of Testosterone is going to give you exactly twice the gains you would get on 1g/wk of Testosterone? I certainly haven't read any posts by anyone on steroidology that have stated this...

    -A single 1g injection of Testosterone Suspension will give you the exact same gains that a single 1g injection of Testosterone Cypionate will?

  19. #19
    Olympian Bodybuilder LAWNSAVER's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DTOX
    So you seriously believe:

    -2g/wk of Testosterone is going to give you exactly twice the gains you would get on 1g/wk of Testosterone? I certainly haven't read any posts by anyone on steroidology that have stated this...

    -A single 1g injection of Testosterone Suspension will give you the exact same gains that a single 1g injection of Testosterone Cypionate will?

    to be honest, neither will produce much of anything!

    No if you were to take an equal amount of each, with proper injection times, over 4 weeks, the suspension will yield better results on the same person, as he would get more raw test.

    Lets compare apples to apples (Time)

  20. #20
    Amateur Bodybuilder DTOX's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LAWNSAVER
    No if you were to take an equal amount of each, with proper injection times, over 4 weeks, the suspension will yield better results on the same person, as he would get more raw test.
    That's nice and all, but that's not the question I asked at all...

    The funny thing is that you rephrased my question from a single injection to multiple injections over a period of time... So in a way you proved my point for me: The very reason longer esters are more anabolic for any single injection of equal amounts of testosterone (not including the ester) is because the effects are spread out over a longer period of time.

    --And (as you pointed out) this can be mimic'd by simply injecting shorter esters more often.

  21. #21
    Frank Zane arby's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DTOX
    That's nice and all, but that's not the question I asked at all...

    The funny thing is that you rephrased my question from a single injection to multiple injections over a period of time... So in a way you proved my point for me: The very reason longer esters are more anabolic for any single injection of equal amounts of testosterone (not including the ester) is because the effects are spread out over a longer period of time.

    --And (as you pointed out) this can be mimic'd by simply injecting shorter esters more often.
    Anabolic and androgenic are chemical properties, not terms you throw around, or apply in certain cases. A chemical that promotes a synthesis of more complex compounds (such as protein) from less complex compounds (such as amino acids, which is what protein gets broken down into when you eat it) is anabolic. A chemical that promotes male secondary sex characteristics is androgenic.

    Since, regardles of ester, we have the same chemical, we have the same anabolic and androgenic properties.

    I'm done with this thread.

    RB

  22. #22
    Olympian Bodybuilder LAWNSAVER's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DTOX
    That's nice and all, but that's not the question I asked at all...

    The funny thing is that you rephrased my question from a single injection to multiple injections over a period of time... So in a way you proved my point for me: The very reason longer esters are more anabolic for any single injection of equal amounts of testosterone (not including the ester) is because the effects are spread out over a longer period of time.

    --And (as you pointed out) this can be mimic'd by simply injecting shorter esters more often.
    But then you just ccontradicted yourself. If the longer ester is more anabolic, then why would the shorter ester win in the end?

    Test is Test. The esters take up "room" and take away from the actual substance. I am only pointing out that over a period of time the shorter ester would yeild more results because there is actually more test there.

    Before I was pointing out the sides are more pronouced with shorter ester, which makes them APPEAR to be more anabolic or androgenic.

  23. #23
    Amateur Bodybuilder DTOX's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LAWNSAVER
    But then you just ccontradicted yourself. If the longer ester is more anabolic, then why would the shorter ester win in the end?

    It wouldn't "win" (whatever that means), it would be a tie.

    I was trying to explain that we're saying the same thing: as long as the mg of the testosterone is the same (excluding ester) that frequent injections of shorter esters basically give the same results as less frequent injections of longer esters.

    Test is Test. The esters take up "room" and take away from the actual substance. I am only pointing out that over a period of time the shorter ester would yeild more results because there is actually more test there.

    As I've stated, I was comparing mg-to-mg of testosterone and not including the additional weight of the esters.

    I agree Test is Test. The only thing that is any different is *the amount and duration of test at the receptors*. Depending on injection schedules, amounts and esters, the body's response can be different. Your body is going to respond differently from a single injection of 1g of Test Suspension then it will from a single injection of 1g of Test Cypionate.

    Before I was pointing out the sides are more pronouced with shorter ester, which makes them APPEAR to be more anabolic or androgenic.

    Well that's where the argument breaks down into semantics. I agree that esters aren't going to make a compound more/less androgenic in that respect. But, I think we'd all agree that the body is going to have a more "androgenic" response (agression, libido, strength, etc. - or "side effects" as you said) from an injection of Test Suspension that it would from an injection of an equal amount of Test Cypionate.

    To clarify, it might be easier to understand the authors original point by looking at it as a comparison of *the body's response* to various esters, and not that the esters are magically altering the very characteristics of the steroid.

  24. #24
    g32
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    I love a good debate, i see alot of experience talking in these post , awsome work .

    Thanks

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