[pump_past50]

Ok, I'm new to this site and new to AAS. I've done a lot research and have been getting advice from someone with experience. So, from all of this I've made the dicision to do a cycle.
First, a little about me. I'm 52, 5'8", 162lbs.
I've been working out 4 days per wk and do cardio 4 days per week (16 miles total). I've been lifting for over five years. My body fat is around 20%. I've always had difficulty with keeping my b/f down. I consider my diet to be good (not perfect). About 2500-2800 cal per day, with a low fat intake.
My goal is not to be a competitive body builder, rather, I am hoping to achieve a lower b/f level, while moderately increasing muscle mass and definition.
Ok, thats me in a nutshell. Now this is what my friend has recommended:
Test e, 1 cc per wk, for 10 wks
Dbol, 20mg ed, for first 2 weeks (kick start)
Winny, 20-30mg beginning in the 4th week until end of cycle.
Nolva, light dosage beginning in 2nd week and higher dosage for a 3 wk PCT.
My questions are;
1) does this look like a decent first cycle to achieve my goals?
2) Is 1cc of test (200-250mg) per wk a sufficient amount to really get any effect at all?
I'd appreciate thoughts and advice. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to look like Jay or Ronnie and I am 52 so my normal test levels are a lot less than the 20 somethings.

[Gancha_Holland]

u will gain on that cycle though i fear it would quite some fat too.

I'd advise for you to cut down to about 15% with diet and cardio(but u'r already doing that, increase?!?!)

about your cycle, i would drop the dbol and use winstrol instead to about week 6/8. this would do you more good. and maybe use some anti oestregen, arimidex or something...

[StoneColdNTO]

Moved to the appropriate forum....

[pump_past50]

Thanks Holland. I will be taking Nolvadex as an anti estragen and winstrol beginning in week 4 to end of cycle. What about the test. Is 1 cc per week enough to see results?

[outlawtas]

Have you considered HGH? Around your age it really has some great results quite fast and your could probably obtain it legally.

As for the cycle, looks pretty good. I wouldn't use the Dbol and/or winny in your first cycle. Considering your age, I advise you to only run testosterone and see how your body reacts (by getting bloodwork done visiting the doctor once a month to check BP, etc).

If everything is okay after your first cycle (remember, you will have a someone slower recovery time as well) you could introduce other compounds.

I also strongly suggest you re-evaluate both your training and diet, because in 5 years of training you should have easily surpassed 162lbs - 52 years old or not. Steroids are icing on the cake. Size/strength comes from diet and training alone.

[outlawtas]

1cc of test isn't a measurement. 1cc could contain 5mg of testosterone while another could contain 500mg. Vastly different. Let us know the dosage ie 200mg/ml

[pump_past50]

Thanks tas. I would love to try HGH but unfortunetly its beyond my financial means. As for the Winstrol, isn't it a good product for a cutting type cycle?
I agree, that my results after 5 years are not where I would like them to be...or should be. I plan to up my protein intake to 2 gms per lb of body weight per day during cycle. I have to admit, I probably haven't been getting a sufficient amount of protein but I feel that my genetics are probably holding me back as well.

[pump_past50]

I haven't yet recieved the test but I believe the normal in this part of the world is 200 mg per cc

[pump_past50]

tas do you agree with holland that this cycle would increase body fat? doesn't the winny prevent this?

[Biggin]

Originally Posted by outlawtas

Have you considered HGH? Around your age it really has some great results quite fast and your could probably obtain it legally.

As for the cycle, looks pretty good. I wouldn't use the Dbol and/or winny in your first cycle. Considering your age, I advise you to only run testosterone and see how your body reacts (by getting bloodwork done visiting the doctor once a month to check BP, etc).

If everything is okay after your first cycle (remember, you will have a someone slower recovery time as well) you could introduce other compounds.

I also strongly suggest you re-evaluate both your training and diet, because in 5 years of training you should have easily surpassed 162lbs - 52 years old or not. Steroids are icing on the cake. Size/strength comes from diet and training alone.

Biggin agrees with outlawtas.

[Biggin]

Originally Posted by pump_past50

tas do you agree with holland that this cycle would increase body fat? doesn't the winny prevent this?

This depends on Ur diet. Winny will not prevent fat.

[robbocopp]

strongly agree with outlaw and biggin ... at your age/weight bf% forget test and dbol for losing weight ...

HGH (come on there are some cheap generic 191aa's out there) will be great.

If you are doing as much cardio and your BF is 20% you need to test you thyroid -- your bf should be lower. Also test your testosterone levels - you need to see how those are before you go further.

I would skip orals and test (for now) -- concentrate on T3/T4 - if you're hypothyroid then that would lower your testosterone levels.

If you thyroid and testosterone levels are good - then back to HgH and t3/t4. Oh yeah, check the sugar levels too (and fasting insulin levels) cause we want to rule out pre-diabetes in which case we either skip HgH or add insulin.

And, especially at your age, if you are going to run Testosterone RUN HcG duing the cycle - enough enunchaks on this site without balls wondering how they got there and what they can do to fix things.

[pump_past50]

Well, thanks for your thoughts robbocop. As for HGH, from the research and enquiries that I've done, I'd be looking at in excess of $400 per month for the real thing (not one of the hgh promoters). From what I've read the hgh promoter sups are not very effective and that only real hgh is affective. Anyone have experience with hgh promoters.
I've a little surprised that you feel that I shouldn't use test. Isn't it the base for all cycles. Test for someone at my age should be even more indicated because our test levels are natually lower than younger people. My dr tells me that my test levels are normal for someone my age...whatever that means. He also says thyroid function is normal also. I think in my case its a genetic thing, most of my family are overweight.

[1badmofo]

Make sure you are aware that Winstrol is known to cause joint pain and have negative effects on cholesterol levels. You might just want to go with TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) once the cycle is over.

[robbocopp]

well, I said I would skip dbol and test - and that's because of what you said your goal IS - "keeping my bf DOWN". I make a case for testosterone see lower idea. I would argue that most steroids aren't for losing weight.

You'll have to eat more to gain muscle and you'll probably gain fat too - if you end up at 22-24% bf but if you can't get leaner now, you'll have an even harder time getting leaner when you are going through PCT.

I still think outlaw is right -- HgH is THE way to go.

Generic HgH is A LOT CHEAPER (you'll need 120iu/month x 6months = 720iu's or roughly 7 boxes -- that should be total under 1000$ for generic). Hell, jintropin is cheaper than what you said if you buy direct - call them in China)

Forget "promotors" - I think they're a scam (I can see the flames now). Maybe 2-3g of arginine at night -- there's SOME evidence that it acts by inhibiting somatostin which raises natural HgH production but it has other good sides so it can't hurt.

Here's what I would try:

OPTION 1: If your bp allows try clen (ramp up - take ketotifen at night 3mcg after two-three weeks) 80-120mcg/day, add some estrogen inhibitor (I like exemestane but arimidex is fine too) and go for t3 twice a day 25mcgs 2x/day up to 50mcgs/2x day.)

Run clen (with ketotifen) no more than 5/6 weeks - or 3 weeks max (w/out ketotifen). Run T3 as long as you wish.

OPTION 2: (more controversial) - go for an oxandrolone w/ exemestane / t3 cycle. Go 40mg/day oxandrolone (anavar) with lots of liver protection (b-vits, milk thistle, arginine) AND 12.5 aromasin (exemestane) /day + 50mcgs/2x/day of t3. (measure liver values every two weeks)

what "will" happen is you'll have nice (small) gains from the anavar - your testosterone will be reduced (so will estrogen leading to a leaner look) - you'll further reduce estrogen with aromasin and boost metabolism with t3.

possible downside is endo-test inhibition (some) -- keep a close eye on your performance and "feeling" - I have done it and during the cycle testosterone was reduced but libido stayed FINE. After cycle test came back fast with exedrol.

Option 3: If you DO run test I would ABSOLUTELY run an estrogen inhibitor (exemestane) the whole time, (plus HcG goes without saying) AND I would definitely add T3 (100mcg/day) in the mix. With test you are anabolic enough to not lose any muscle with T3. Inhibiting estrogen will keep your gains lean and adding t3 will increase caloric burn especially of bmr. Skip dbol. I love it for mass and strength - neither on your list of "wants".

If you can get some Hgh (early early morning) and insulin (after workouts 2IU's subq with some big protein/glutamine shakes) I love the idea. (good cycle without hgh -- great with )

Option 4: You mention "low fat" diet. Perhaps a lower-carb diet could help a bit. Take some carnitine (2-4g) right before those cardio workouts. Switch to healthier fats - nuts, seeds, olive oil, avocados etc... and reduce caloric intake to 2000/day for 160lbs and 52 years old. Combine this with option 1 (clen/anti-estrogen/t3) and if you still aren't dropping weight ... I don't know.

And ask your DOC for the test results - "fine" is a word doctors use like "soon" is used in marketing - means NOTHING. If your thyroid is in normal range but 80% tsh and 10% ft3 you are DEFINITELY hypothyroid but you'll hear "fine" since you are in range.

[pump_past50]

Thanks for the information and assisstance robbocopp. You've given me a lot to consider. I'm going to evaluate the options you discussed to help me make a decision as to which route to take.
Just to clarify, I should have indicated that my goal isn't to lose weight but rather to lose body fat. I wouldn't mind being 10 or 15 lbs heavier if it was good lean mass. Sorry if I misled. From what I've read, winny is good for lean mass, True?
I'm just coming off of a clen, t3 cycle. It was a 3 week cycle and I found that I lost a decent amount of bf while at the same time losing 5 lbs. Lost an inch on my waist.
I'll research jintropin. I am new to this so I'm a little confounded as to how to source the substances that I need.
Something I didn't mention is that I'm hypoglycemic. Not sure if this is important or not.

[robbocopp]

hypo ? wait a sec - and you said it's genetic -- that a lot of family members suffer from this ? ALL hypo ? probably low bp also ?

what's your fasting insulin level ? have you had urine chlorine analysis or urine amino acid tests ? has a doc excluded genetic metabolic disease ? have you had a pancreatic mri or ultrasound to rule out pancreatic problems??

If I had a choice - testosterone+hcg+t3+estrogen inhibitor = 12weeks

but, I don't like this hypo thing without knowing more why ... and how low the sugar levels are (60-55-50... ?)

[Teutonic]

Lots of good stuff here eh ?
I m almost 46..winny makes sore joints worse.
Our metabolism are slowing down..no shit huh ?
I too think hgh is the way to go soon..and I too have financial concerns..
you do need to be carefful with your diet with respect to your hypoglcemia..
Stay on here..these guys will keep you going w/info and encouragement

[pump_past50]

The hypo isn't serious i've had it under control lately with diet. as for bp i'm quite steady at 110/70.
Um , as for the other questions, well, I did have complete abdominal ultrasound and all was normal. Had a urinalysis recently, doc said it was normal except my keytones were slightly up but he said it wasn't a concern.
By the way, I'm in Canada...getting gear through our customs is probably worse than the US. Most companies won't even attempt to ship to Canada. I have no idea how to get hgh. I'm in a small town and only have one aquiantance that competes, he says he can help me locate some of the basics (test, dbol, winny).

[pump_past50]

Hey, German glad to hear from someone near my age. No joint problems here but I know it can be a concern. Can I ask what sort of cycles you,ve been on and how it worked for you?

[Teutonic]

Us old dudes have a whole differant sort of challenges..
From 1985-1991 I did oil based test cycles with dbol.. competed as a collegiate powerlifter in undergrad..In grad school I was a body builder..Again test and some dbol..never knew what ai s, serm s and pct were until 3 yrs ago..
I took a hiatus from roids, but not the gym, from 1991-06.
I ll stick to test..and short orals..They got new fancy stuff out there now...and it s to much for me.
I ll end this one in 6 weeks..go on trt for 10-12 weeks..then try Anavar..with test..
TAKE CARE OF YOUR JOINTS..i didnt . I would avoid winny..it made me ache after 10 days..and I ache enuff.. Peace dude..

[robbocopp]

German - my dates and training coincide almost 100% with yours. I am 40 (in a couple of months) --- 5'9" and about 205-210 (nothing for 5 months). Started getting into shape slowly 4 years ago with serious training this year (after 15 years - and many many injuries).

Goal is 220 by next summer (min 90 days clear of anything) -- with about 10-12% bf. I won't make it but it's the "goal".

past 50 -- ok - if your pancreas is ok and bp is ok and everything checks out then probably testosterone+hcg+anti-estrogen+t3 is THE way to go.

If I can emphasize enough HcG all during your cycle ... start it as early as the second week and keep it going until 3 weeks after. At this age (not ancient but no spring chicken) you do NOT want to shrink your balls or shut down your own production.

I agree with the german - winny might hurt the joints - don't know why you would need it for your goals.
Good luck

PS. Don't want to break a rule but anyone know anything about belife peptides (hgh, igf) ? I spoke with them, they really knew chemistry and details in manufacturing and they were willing to ship ... v.good prices ... Past50 they might even ship to you. But, I can't say it enough - I don't know if they are for real.

[pump_past50]

Winny was suggested by my friend as a way to lean out a little and keep the water gains down while on the test. From what i have read this could be true...modest muscle building but leaner look...agree? I have to admit, I don't know much about anavar. i'll have to research it.
I would use nolva during cycle. I do have t3 but I don't like to use it for more than 3 weeks at a time. Is hcg really necessary on only 250mg of test per week?

[DADAWG]

forgive my inpatience but im sick of the whole use winnie for cutting dbol for bulking CRAP.
winnie dries you out which goes away post cycle so unless you are peaking for a bodybuilding contest why use a steroid [ winnie] that is notorious for hair loss / joint pain / wrecking your cholesterol.
dbol and test do cause some bloating , guess what that goes away post cycle as well , they also cause better lean mass gains than winnie. guess what again that lean mass added during your cycle will continue to burn calories from now on which will help you stay leaner in the long run.
there are some studies here and there which clout certain steroids especially anavar as burning fat and from what ive read var does have some effect with a certain kind of body fat. that being said diet is what makes a cycle a cutter or a bulker and adding lean mass will give you long term fat burning help.

[pump_past50]

Thanks for your input dawg. As I mentioned, it was a competator friend that suggested the winny. From what I'm hearing it may not be the right choice for someone with my goals. Dawg, in your opinion, with looking at my situation and goals, what would be my best choice for stacking with test e?
All of the opinions and advice that is being given is appreciated and heard.