TRT and Cycling

[SnowBird]

Hey guys Ive been on TRT for the passed few years and have heard some conflicting views about PCT for TRT patients.

Some have told me to run the regular clomid/tamox combo 10-14days after last injection AND start my regular weekly TRT injection at that same time.

Others have told me that i really need no PCT at all considering that everything will be suppressed again by the TRT injections. Maybe some tamox if gyno complications occur but nothing else is really needed.

Since i already have everything on hand for a normal PCT procedure would it offer any benefit or harm for me to run the normal PCT along with my TRT injections?

By the way it was my first cycle and I ran Dbol and Test-E.

Thanks for any input.

[fleverglades]

Good question - most of what I see on this site says no need for PCT - just go back to injections. HOWEVER, I have met with two endo's both of whom DO NOT like steroid cycling and are really against the whole thing. They said to do PCT while maintaining weekly trt injections. Both are Doctors.

[estray]

If anything id run some hcg but see no point in doing pct if youre gonna resume TRT.

[Bast]

I agree, some hcg at most. You wont ever recover youre levels anyways as youre on TRT so there is no point.
If you want children amongst other things, then go with hcg.

[ythrashin]

It makes no logical sense at all to run any type of PCT or HCG if your are on TRT. Your HPTA is shut down while on TRT. Running a cycle is not going to change this at all.... If its shut down it fricken shut down...period...

All you'll do after you run your PCT is shut your HPTA down again when you start your TRT dose...POINTLESS!!

It makes logical sense to just taper back down to your TRT dose of testosterone after you blast.You'll keep more of your gains and it will not be as hard on your body as running a PCT and having your Testosterone levels plummet...etc...

[ythrashin]

[QUOTE=fleverglades;2139643]Good question - most of what I see on this site says no need for PCT - just go back to injections. HOWEVER, I have met with two endo's both of whom DO NOT like steroid cycling and are really against the whole thing. They said to do PCT while maintaining weekly trt injections. Both are Doctors.[/They sound like they don't know what they are talking about...

Keep running your TRT dose of Test while you run PCT?? The test will be counter productive and just keep your HPTA partially shut down and you wont recover completely...WTF??

Another example of doctors not knowing what the hell they're talking about...

IMO

[Dragon_MD]

No need for PCT at all bro. Been on TRT for 7 years now and cycles off and on the whole time. Some do suggest HCG as they believe it could make a recovery easier if you chose to come off. I don't really buy that though personally. But who can really say for sure. I also think a lot of people use HCG more so for cosmetic reasons, ie bigger balls.

Also, I do not condone nolvadex at all. Much better choices now a days, such as AI's. No clomid while on either. If fertility became an issue, that is another story, and still yet far more effective options. Such as HMG.

One thing I would have checked is your total estrodiol and prolactin. A mild AI such as low dose aromasin or AIFM might be well worth the investment. You don't want elevated estrogen over long periods of time. Just in the middle of the reference range is good for most.

[estray]

Originally Posted by ythrashin

It makes no logical sense at all to run any type of PCT or HCG if your are on TRT. Your HPTA is shut down while on TRT. Running a cycle is not going to change this at all.... If its shut down it fricken shut down...period...

All you'll do after you run your PCT is shut your HPTA down again when you start your TRT dose...POINTLESS!!

It makes logical sense to just taper back down to your TRT dose of testosterone after you blast.You'll keep more of your gains and it will not be as hard on your body as running a PCT and having your Testosterone levels plummet...etc...

Wrong. Most TRT docs include HCG as part of the regimen. It serves many purposes, one of which is keeping the testes from shriveling up into nothing. People dont like raisin sacks, therye not exactly aesthetically pleasing to look at. Keeping the testes from atrophy is also important if the patient decides to ever stop taking TRT like someone pointed out already.

Second, it stimulates the side chain cleavage enzyme P450scc, which in turn keeps the body making the other hormones besides testosterone so as to keep a more healthy overall hormone balance.

[Massive123]

Nice post bro. Thanks for that.

[ythrashin]

Originally Posted by estray

Wrong. Most TRT docs include HCG as part of the regimen. It serves many purposes, one of which is keeping the testes from shriveling up into nothing. People dont like raisin sacks, therye not exactly aesthetically pleasing to look at. Keeping the testes from atrophy is also important if the patient decides to ever stop taking TRT like someone pointed out already.

Second, it stimulates the side chain cleavage enzyme P450scc, which in turn keeps the body making the other hormones besides testosterone so as to keep a more healthy overall hormone balance.

We are talking about PCT here...Whats the point? You think its required?
As fare as your HPTA goes while on TRT. Its shut down...Using HCG will not change this...

Interesting stuff... didnt know that LH/HCG stimulated that production. Thought it only stimulated Testosterone production.

The enzyme P450scc is involved in converting cholesterol to pregnenolone which then is used to make progesterone,DHEA and androsta-5,16-dien-3 beta-ol by 16-ene synthetase...


HCG may be valuable in TRT for those two reasons... If HGC is in your TRT regime I dont think you would need to change it when blasting. Just run it the same way while cruising/blasting...

[estray]

Originally Posted by ythrashin

We are talking about PCT here...Whats the point? You think its required?
As fare as your HPTA goes while on TRT. Its shut down...Using HCG will not change this...

Interesting stuff... didnt know that LH/HCG stimulated that production. Thought it only stimulated Testosterone production.

The enzyme P450scc is involved in converting cholesterol to pregnenolone which then is used to make progesterone,DHEA and androsta-5,16-dien-3 beta-ol by 16-ene synthetase...


HCG may be valuable in TRT for those two reasons... If HGC is in your TRT regime I dont think you would need to change it when blasting. Just run it the same way while cruising/blasting...

I told him along with others that PCT wasnt necessary. I was simply saying he should be using hcg if he wasnt already, especially since hes cycling between cruises on HRT.

Im on TRT and i cycle a couple times a year, mostly tren, and ill run hcg every now and then to plump the Balls back up so theyre not permanantly shrunk. Does wonders for the sex drive too(as if it wasnt high enough already).

[SnowBird]

Interesting. Thanks for the answers. Still seems like a lot of conflicting views from everybody.

My overall conclusion from you guys is PCT is not necessary for me and that I could produce a slight benefit from HCG?

So that brings me to another question. My last cycle shot was thursday. Should I wait anytime for that to clear out at all or simply go straight back into my weekly TRT injections? Meaning i would pin again on this thursday.

[Bast]

Pin again on thursday

[Biggin]

Biggin agrees with Bast.

[SnowBird]

Originally Posted by Bast

Pin again on thursday

Originally Posted by Biggin

Biggin agrees with Bast.

Thanks guys

[Massive123]

I thought prolonged use of hcg desensitizes LH but if it's prescribed for trt how is this possible? I asked on another board & was told this is simply a myth that is passed around on boards but that actual studies don't exist proving this. Anyone have any factual basis to show prolonged use of hcg causes LH desensitization?

[ythrashin]

Prolonged use will not cause desensitization. Mega dosing will...

On the other hand prolonged non-exposure to LH/HCG of the leydig cells can cause leydig cell desensitization also...

So a low dose between 250-500 twice a week is optimal.

I've read a couple. I'll try to find them...

[ythrashin]

HCG - Unraveled
Eric Potratz
HCG - Unraveled
By Eric M. Potratz
Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders.
PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.
HCG unraveled –
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.
When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.
Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due toprolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.
One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation.Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)
To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)
Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!

[ythrashin]

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20




In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.
Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)
Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.
If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)
Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.
Recap –
For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.
In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

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