[cyclegtr]

Stats:
Age-39
Weight-167
Height- 5-8

I have a relatively small frame, so 167 is a lot for me and its taken me 24 years to get where I'm at. I've been lifting religiously since I was 15. I did a cycle of deca and sustanon (fairly low doses) last year (1st time since I did a cycle of Test Cyp. at 17) and put on a solid 10 pounds to my frame. I've been stuck on 155-6 for years.

Regarding this cycle, I wanted to do a cycle of Anavar and kick start it with a few weeks of Winstrol before beginning the Anavar. I was planning on running Winstrol 100mg EOD for these 1st couple of weeks. I have Test on hand and may run later if needed.

Problem: Took my first shot in the right glute 2 days ago and OH MY LORD is my glute sore. I almost can't sit and my glute is slightly swolen. I know Winstrol shots can be painful, but damn this is ridiculous. I can't really run without biting a bullet. My girlfriend brushed up against my ass yesterday and I wanted to cry. I also developed flu like syptoms all day yesterday and last night, but do feel slightly better today. Question: Is 100mg EOD day too much for someone with my body frame? Seriously, I'm looking at that next shot (which should be today) like its another torture session.

Has anyone else experienced these flu like symptoms when starting Winstrol, and will they go away as my body adjusts to Winstrol? Or should I trash the Winstrol (the Anavar is the real focus in this cycle; 30-40 mg ED).

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Massive123]

Hang in there bro. Your body probably isn't used to pinning and also the winny. Cut the shot with some b12 or sterile oil. Don't worry bout the water based winny & oil. It should help the pain nicely and your body will begin to adjust and won't recognize it as such a foreign substance soon enough. I went through some seriously painfully shots and did this. A heating pad will also help a lot.

No pain no gain right??

[cyclegtr]

Thanks. I actually think it might be a hematoma forming at the injection site. My glute has a slight swolen lump that's turning mildly red and is very sensitive to the touch. I'm downing lots of Advil and praying that it goes away on its own within a day or two. If not, off to the doctor.

I'll shoot the next shot in my quad and post an update.

[PJS]

Make sure your gear is clean.
I always pin the quads, and have def. had some painful injections with winny. Some took up to 5 days for the swelling and soreness to subside. I recommend Ibuprofen and applying heat to the affected area, this always helped me out when I was experiencing such effects. Good luck.

[StoneColdNTO]

moved to the appropriate forum....

[MassMonster86]

is the gear UG?

flu like symptoms occur with test for me.. test flu

HOWEVER if you have pain in the area.. you might have an infection or just sensitive to BAlchol.. if the area hurts really bad.. is red.. etc.. apply heat.

If for some reason it is an infection you do not want to work out the area due to it may cause it to spread.

HOWEVER.. probably just arent used to injecting.. cut it with b12 or something

[MassMonster86]

come to think of it after reading your post again.. not an infection.

inject slower next time. try your shoulder or quad. after you inject do shoulders or ride the bike. this will help spread the oil and it wont hurt as much the next day.

[menmar]

Originally Posted by cyclegtr

Stats:
Age-39
Weight-167
Height- 5-8

I have a relatively small frame, so 167 is a lot for me and its taken me 24 years to get where I'm at. I've been lifting religiously since I was 15. I did a cycle of deca and sustanon (fairly low doses) last year (1st time since I did a cycle of Test Cyp. at 17) and put on a solid 10 pounds to my frame. I've been stuck on 155-6 for years.

Regarding this cycle, I wanted to do a cycle of Anavar and kick start it with a few weeks of Winstrol before beginning the Anavar. I was planning on running Winstrol 100mg EOD for these 1st couple of weeks. I have Test on hand and may run later if needed.

Problem: Took my first shot in the right glute 2 days ago and OH MY LORD is my glute sore. I almost can't sit and my glute is slightly swolen. I know Winstrol shots can be painful, but damn this is ridiculous. I can't really run without biting a bullet. My girlfriend brushed up against my ass yesterday and I wanted to cry. I also developed flu like syptoms all day yesterday and last night, but do feel slightly better today. Question: Is 100mg EOD day too much for someone with my body frame? Seriously, I'm looking at that next shot (which should be today) like its another torture session.

Has anyone else experienced these flu like symptoms when starting Winstrol, and will they go away as my body adjusts to Winstrol? Or should I trash the Winstrol (the Anavar is the real focus in this cycle; 30-40 mg ED).

Thanks in advance for any input.

What kind of gear are you using? I've used Winni many times and only once had a similar problem with Advanced Stealth gear. Horrible pain and bruising at injection site. It got so bad I just drank it. Will never order from them again. It might be your gear. Never had any issues with Zambon or Winstrol V by Upjohn (they don't exist anymore) and most recently GP Winstrol (super smoothe).

[fleverglades]

actually - same thing ahppened to me with test once - I just hit the wrong place - couldnt walk for 3 days - same lump/bruise but no infection. it wasn't the stuff because it worked fine before and after. Ive taken 50 shots and had it happen once. man, did it suck - i think its a numbers thing. every once in awhile, it happens. what a bruise, though - freaking purple as hell - couldnt even sleep.

[cyclegtr]

I decided to lower the dose and pinned 50mg in my left quad (very slow) on Tuesday night. By Wednesday afternoon, I could barely walk with my right glute sore as hell and my left quad getting sorer my the minute. I was able to work out bicepts and back yesterday, but today is legs, shoulders, and cardio. The soreness wasn't nearly as bad in the left quad with the lower dose, but still worse than anything else pinning test or deca. My glute is getting better and I'm no longer concerned that it's a hematoma, but I definitely can't go anything higher than 50mg per pin. I drank my dose today and think I may alternate drinking and pinning to allow the sore spots to recover.

Thanks for all the input. Question, how do you go about cutting this stuff with B-12 oil? Do you just draw a certain amount with the Winstrol in one pin and insert in one dose?

[cyclegtr]

Oh and one more thing, the heating pad along with ibuprofin definitely helps.

[Sliding_Filament]

Yup. I had the same flu-like symtoms when I started a couple of weeks ago. Went away the next day. No problem.

As for the soreness, just continue your ibuprofen and heating pad regimen.

I've had no problem with RWR stanozolol regarding the soreness. Really good stuff. It's australian. Taking mine 50mg eod, no soreness whatsoever. If you have access to the stuff, I highly recommend it.

[menmar]

Originally Posted by cyclegtr

I decided to lower the dose and pinned 50mg in my left quad (very slow) on Tuesday night. By Wednesday afternoon, I could barely walk with my right glute sore as hell and my left quad getting sorer my the minute. I was able to work out bicepts and back yesterday, but today is legs, shoulders, and cardio. The soreness wasn't nearly as bad in the left quad with the lower dose, but still worse than anything else pinning test or deca. My glute is getting better and I'm no longer concerned that it's a hematoma, but I definitely can't go anything higher than 50mg per pin. I drank my dose today and think I may alternate drinking and pinning to allow the sore spots to recover.

Thanks for all the input. Question, how do you go about cutting this stuff with B-12 oil? Do you just draw a certain amount with the Winstrol in one pin and insert in one dose?

Dude! If you get bruising and a lot of pain every time you inject - stop injecting! Winstrol is not supposed to be THAT painful! Just drink it! Don't risk getting an infection!

[ythrashin]

Originally Posted by Massive123

Hang in there bro. Your body probably isn't used to pinning and also the winny. Cut the shot with some b12 or sterile oil. Don't worry bout the water based winny & oil. It should help the pain nicely and your body will begin to adjust and won't recognize it as such a foreign substance soon enough. I went through some seriously painfully shots and did this. A heating pad will also help a lot.

No pain no gain right??

Why mix water based winni with oil...?

Doesnt make sense...

Just get some B12...50/50 mix it with the winni.

B12 is water based...

[ythrashin]

Originally Posted by menmar

Dude! If you get bruising and a lot of pain every time you inject - stop injecting! Winstrol is not supposed to be THAT painful! Just drink it! Don't risk getting an infection!

I agree if mixing it with b12 doesnt work just drink it. May taste like shit..just chase it with some OJ.

[ahtwqqaq15]

I was totally unaware you could drink winny...or test...is this normal or recamended..?

[menmar]

Originally Posted by ahtwqqaq15

I was totally unaware you could drink winny...or test...is this normal or recamended..?

You don't drink Test but you can drink winni. Normally if you're going to take it orally you should get tabs. If you have injectable, you want to inject it. But if your gear is crap, you can always drink it. I speak from personal experience. Got some really thick winni injectable that was impossible to inj. Huge bruising, major pain for days! So I ended up drinking it and it still worked. Probably not nearly as well as better gear would have worked but at least it wasn't a total loss.

[THE-DET-OAK]

drinking injectable winni or any other injectable will not do anything-it has to be a 17aa steroid or it will not work orally.

[ythrashin]

Originally Posted by newbie23

drinking injectable winni or any other injectable will not do anything-it has to be a 17aa steroid or it will not work orally.

Winni is in the 17aa form in both inject and oral form bro'....

[ythrashin]

Do not fucking drink Test!

Liquid winni or anavar can be injected or drank...

There are some types of oral Test out there....sublingual or troche they are designed so they absorb directly into the blood stream when put under the tongue.

[ythrashin]

Here are the differences between drinking and injecting winni...

Nice article...


Winstrol - Oral versus Injectable (More Different Than You Think!)
By Anthony Roberts

I tend to shy away from straight “information” articles- in other words, I’ve never written the “How Androgens Work” article, because I’ve read it several times by several authors, and I really have nothing to add. Gene Transcription and Androgen Receptor Action has been written about over, and over, ad nauseum. All of the articles I’ve read on the topic are well written and well- they’re all the same. Don’t get me wrong, all of the articles which discuss the topic are very informative, but when you’re done reading them, you don’t really have anything you can “use” in your next cycle.

And I’m sure you know the difference between orals and injectables, but do yourself a favor and read this article, because I’m going to explain some things in here that you can use in your next cycle. Actually, I’m going to explain how you can use Winstrol (Stanozolol) as either an oral or injectable, and get a very different set of effects from the same drug- depending on which route of administration you choose to utilize.

First, lets go over the basics of Winstrol, so we’re all on the same page here.

Winstrol is a steroid derived from the base structure of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is just testosterone which has been 5alpha-reduced, meaning it has had the c4-5 double bond removed by two hydrogen atoms. This is very interesting from a chemical/biological standpoint. Once this bond is removed, testosterone has become DHT, and DHT is the body’s most potent androgen. DHT has a slew of beneficial effects which are more pronounced than the hormone it’s created out of. DHT is able to increase androgen receptor proliferation for almost 24 full hours (1) DHT also has profound effects on the Central Nervous System (CNS), and this is why we often see profoundly increased aggression with athletes who are using DHT derivatives such as Masteron (which has a deceivingly low anabolic and androgenic rating). As an added benefit, DHT can not aromatize (convert via the aromatase enzyme) into estrogen. It’s also noteworthy that the injectable version of Winstrol is actually the same exact thing as the oral- it’s just micronized Stanozolol powder suspended in water (or sometimes oil).

So what we have in Winstrol is DHT with two modifications- an added c17 methylation, and a very weird “pyrazol” group. The c17 methylation has been added in order to allow Winstrol to survive oral ingestion and the subsequent first pass through the liver. The pyrazol group is a bit weirder- what this means to you and I is that it has another whole “ring” attached to the four ring Steran Nucleus of DHT. Take a look over at the lower left portion of the two molecules below, and you’ll notice that Winstrol has an added cyclopentane (5 sided) group (the pyrazol group):

When we really take a look at Winstrol, the anabolic rating of this product is very high (320% that of testosterone) as compared to its androgenic actions (30% of testosterone). Despite this, Winstrol is really a disappointing drug for size gains. What we typically see with this stuff is some pretty decent strength gains and some nice fat loss if the user isn’t too sloppy with their diet. Not many people report huge weight gains off of Stanozolol. Although many drugs which bind tightly to the androgen receptor are suspected to exhibit their at least some of their lipolytic (fat-burning) effects through receptor binding affinity. The effects of androgens on the regulation of lipolysis in adipose precursor cells.(2), Winstrol remains a potent cutting drug, despite the fact that it has a relatively weak AR binding ability (3). What this tells me is that there’s some stuff going on with regards to Winstrol’s mechanism of action, which doesn’t involve androgen receptor mediated effects. Still, Winstrol is a very potent compound for enhancing protein synthesis (4-5 ) .

As previously discussed, it’s derived from DHT, and DHT is known to have ant-estrogenic effects (6) and Winstrol itself also has anti-progestenic properties (in at least some cases, where it may "block" that receptor) (7). So I think it’s safe to say that some of the “hard” look you can get in your physique from Winstrol is because of it’s ability to inhibit estrogen and progesterone- known culprits in making a physique appear smooth. Unfortunately, since it is 17aa, it is also liver toxic, especially more so when you inject it and it is subject to what is known as the “first pass” through the liver. The difference between taking oral vs. injectable Winstrol, even though it’s technically the same drug, is how and when your body metabolizes it. When you consume a drug orally, that drug is absorbed from the Gastrointestinal tract, where it then passes via the portal vein into the liver -where some drugs are metabolised. This “first pass” can mean that only a certain portion of the drug reaches your body’s bloodstream. As previously discussed, a 17aa has been attached to Winstrol to allow a sizeable portion to survive this metabolism.

First pass metabolism can occur in both the gut and the liver, and where this happens can vary with different drugs. First pass metabolism actually occurs in your gut for some drugs and in the liver for others. Once it has been metabolized, it enters the bloodstream. It’s important to note that when a blood is metabolized in the Gastrointestinal tract, the blood leaving the Gastrointestinal tract does not go right to the heart, but actually still passes through liver via the hepatic portal vein and then ultimately returns to circulation via the hepatic vein. The liver is your body’s filtration unit, and removes large quantities of nutrients, dangerous toxins (or fun toxins, depending on what they are) and other substances from the blood.

So as you can see, when you take an oral steroid such as Winstrol, undergoes a first-pass metabolism in the both the intestines as well as liver. Some drugs can be absorbed more or less totally intact, after only moderate metabolic activity, while some are absorbed only after very extensive metabolic activity. Once it is through this first pass, a given drug then circulates in the blood until it is acquired by another tissue, such as skeletal muscle. Now, if the drug reaches the liver again, it may undergo what is cleverly known as “second-pass” metabolism. Of course, in the case of Winstrol, an injectable version is available, and when we compare the oral and injectable versions of Winstrol and their effects in your body, I think there’s some surprising differences. The injectable is (naturally) put right into your bloodstream and only undergoes the far less extensive second pass metabolism, while the oral must endure the gut and liver on it’s first pass before ending up in circulation.

Now, here’s the interesting part: When you inject Winstrol, instead of taking it orally, you actually get more nitrogen retention (4) (and hence we can infer, more new muscle tissue is being built). SO if you are trying to use Winstrol to build new muscle tissue, the injectable version is going to be far superior to the Oral version. However, there are some advantages that the oral version has over the injectable, including a possible “synergy” with other drugs- but only (primarily) when taken orally.

While in the liver, on it’s first pass, Winstrol is exposed to a variety of enzymes and proteins. To understand how a possible synergy between Winstrol and other steroids may be possible, a little background on Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) is first necessary. For our purposes here, all we need to know is that SHBG is a glycoprotein produced in the liver, which binds to testosterone and makes it biologically unavailable to do all the things we want it to do- like building muscle. It serves to transport testosterone throughout the body, but while it remains bound to testosterone, the testosterone can not exert it’s anabolic effects.

As you can surmise, a very large portion of the testosterone in your body is bound to SHBG. Wouldn’t it be great if we could lower SHBG? With Winstrol we can.

A fairly conservative oral dose of .2mg/kg of Winstrol has been shown to lower SHBG by close to 50%. (8)For me (200lbs) this would mean I would only need around 18mgs/day to free up half of my SHBG bound testosterone! For my omnipresent and hypothetical “100kg bodybuilder”- only 20mgs would be needed (he’s 220 lbs for the metrically impaired among us). Now, with less SHBG floating around in me, my anabolic steroid cycle will be more effective, right? Right.

But why can we only expect such a dramatic lowering of SHBG with the oral? Well, obviously, we’re taking advantage of the first pass through the liver, where we can have our Winstrol interact with SHBG where it’s produced- in the liver…without going through the bloodstream first.

When we take a look at a study done comparing injectable vs. oral contraceptives, we find that the oral version at 70mgs/week (10mgs/day given orally) is more effective at affecting SHBG levels than 400mgs/week given via an injection! (9)In this study, testosterone undecanoate was given at a constant dose along with norestisterone (which raises SHBG). What we see is that when norestisterone is given orally, it produces a far greater effect on SHBG, than when it is administered via an injection. And this is even when the doses of the injectable are 4x higher!

Here’s a chart, illustrating exactly what I’m talking about in this study, which I think suggests very strongly that injectable versions of drugs, when compared with the oral version, will have nowhere near as much of an effect on SHBG:



Of course, in this study, they’re looking at oral vs. injectable versions of a SHBG raising drug- but what we can take away from it is that SHBG interaction with oral compounds is far more pronounced than it is with injectables.

So lets take a small amount of Winstrol with our cycles, and free up some of those steroids we’re taking, right? Right!

Unless of course, we’re talking about women here…I was recently asked why I recommend that women use the injectable version of Winstrol over the oral. I was asked this question by someone, who I assumed had a female friend who was considering using Winstrol. I then realized I was totally incorrect- not about Winstrol, but about the reason behind the question. You see…I saw a picture of the man who had first asked me the question, and it’s readily apparent to me that he probably doesn’t actually know any women. But still, his question is valid and bears repeating and answering here.

I recommend that women avoid the oral version of this product for the same reason that men will find that it gives them an increased synergy and effectiveness in their cycles.

When SHBG is lowered in women, there is more free testosterone floating around. And as we’ve seen, the oral is going to affect SHBG exponentially more than the injectable will. When we lower SHBG too much in women, we see a strong positive correlation with hyperandrogenism (10 ), and hirsuitism (abnormal growth of body hair), as well In fact, non-SHBG-bound testosterone may actually be the defining characteristic for identifying hyperandrogenism in women. In addition, low SHBG contributes to menstrual irregularity.(11)

Finally, and (partially) anecdotally, we also see a greater incidence of clitoral enlargement and acne when the oral version of Winstrol is used by women instead of the injectable. The reasons for this are obvious- When we increase free testosterone by lowering SHBG, we increase the amount of testosterone which is able to be 5a-reduced to DHT. DHT is the primary culprit for steroid induced acne, and is also the hormone responsible for external genital enlargement. Clearly, this is why we see the increased level of clitoral hypertrophy as well as acne when oral Winstrol is used by women.

We can also see increased acne when men use Winstrol orally, but these effects are relatively minor when a 2mg/kg dose is being used to increase the effectiveness of other steroids in a cycle. This isn’t carte blanche to go using Winstrol for an extended period of time under the excuse that it’s increasing the overall effectiveness of the cycle. Stanozolol has some of the worst liver toxicity (hepatoxicity) of any oral steroid on a mg for mg basis. In addition, it’s deleterious effects on your lipid profile (Cholesterol) are also very pronounced, even at low doses- 6mgs/day of Stanozolol can lower HDL (good cholesterol)by 33% and raise LDL (bad cholesterol) by 29% (12 ).

So, hopefully, you’ve reached the end of this article and realized that Winstrol can be used in any cycle to increase the effectiveness of it, but that it must be used sparingly due to it’s possible hepatoxicity and lipid profile effecting properties. Still, when used in heavy testosterone-based profiles, at a dose that will cut your SHBG levels in half, it can increase you other steroids effectiveness quite a bit…but when maximal protein synthesis is wanted, you need to inject it.

There you go…the differences between oral and injectable Winstrol, and how you can use either form to maximize your gains! And yes, Lyle, you can drink Winny.

References:

1. Neural Androgen Receptor Regulation: effects of androgen and antiandrogen. Lu S, Simon NG, Wang Y, Hu S, J Neurobiol 1999 Dec; 41(4):505-12
2. Endocrinology. 1990 Feb;126(2):1229-34. Xu X, De Pergola G, Bjorntorp P
3. Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6.
4. Can J Vet Res. 2000 Oct;64(4):246-8.
5. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1997 Sep 15;211(6):719-22
6. MacDonald PC, Madden JD, Brenner PF, Wilson JD, Siiteri PK 1979 Origin of estrogen in normal men and in women with testicular feminization. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 49:905–916
7. Agents Actions. 1994 Mar;41(1-2):37-43.
8. Sex Hormone Binding Globulin response to the Anabolic steroid: Stanozolol: Evidence for its suitability as a Biological Androgen Sensitivity test. J Clin Metab Endocrinol 68: 1195, 1989)
9. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 87,No. 2 530-539. An Effective Hormonal Male Contraceptive Using Testosterone Undecanoate with Oral or Injectable Norethisterone Preparations Axel Kamischke, Tanja Heuermann, Kathrin Krüger, Sigrid von Eckardstein, Ilka Schellschmidt, Alexander Rübig and Eberhard Nieschlag Institute of Reproductive Medicine of the University (A.K., T.H., K.K., S.V.E., E.N.), D-48129 Münster, Germany; and Schering AG (I.S., A.R.), D-13342 Berlin, Germany
10. Non-sex hormone-binding globulin-bound testosterone as a marker for hyperandrogenism DC Cumming and SR Wall J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Nov 1985; 61: 873 - 876.
11. Menstrual Irregularity in Women with Acromegaly G. A. Kaltsas, J. J. Mukherjee, P. J. Jenkins, M. A. Satta, N. Islam, J. P. Monson, G. M. Besser, and A. B. GrossmanJ. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Aug 1999; 84: 2731 – 2735
12. JAMA. 1989 Feb 24;261(Cool:1165-8
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[Whysoserious]

you sure dude that you have a good batch of gear here mate.

I have used both desma and another uk ug brand of winny and never had half the probs your referring to hear. If your worried about an absess or lump or whatever get it checked out by your doctor.

as for drinking winny it can be drunk, wouldnt recommend it as tastes like sxxt lol
newbie 23 your info wrong

[THE-DET-OAK]

Originally Posted by Whysoserious

you sure dude that you have a good batch of gear here mate.

I have used both desma and another uk ug brand of winny and never had half the probs your referring to hear. If your worried about an absess or lump or whatever get it checked out by your doctor.

as for drinking winny it can be drunk, wouldnt recommend it as tastes like sxxt lol
newbie 23 your info wrong

lol my bad-I did not know all winni was 17aa-also did not know you could inject anavar- ythrashin straightened me out. as far as anything that is not 17aa it wont do shit if you drink it.

[Whysoserious]

i agree if ya drink anything else test based it wont do shit

but you will get gains drinking water based winny done it before myself and was okay. Wouldnt recommend it though, jab it or use orals if needs be

[ythrashin]

Originally Posted by newbie23

lol my bad-I did not know all winni was 17aa-also did not know you could inject anavar- ythrashin straightened me out. as far as anything that is not 17aa it wont do shit if you drink it.

There is injectable anavar out there...Its rare tho'....