ALA and r-ALA together?

[J steel]

Looking for some opinions..........

Currently, I am off cycle...........I take 1000mg ALA (from anabolical) along with my usual daily vitamins, joint support, etc.......
I take the ALA mostly for liver support.


My next cycle will be a bulking one...........I will be eating as clean as possible, but I still would like to take r-ALA to try and stop some of the fat gain. I was thinking maybe 4 a day.

So here's my question...........I usually bump up my normal ALA to 1500mg when on (along with Tyler's liver detox when taking orals).........this time around, I think I will keep the ALA at 1000mg, but add in the 400mg (4 caps, 100mg each) of r-ALA throughout the day with carb meals.

Is this too much? Are there any bad side effects / long term issues from taking too much ALA? Does what I planned out here make sense?

Also, I read on AF about GLA and also biotin. Do you guys believe there really is a synergistic effect adding these in, or would you just stick to the r-ALA?

Thanks in advance!

[J steel]

just gonna give this a little ol' BUMP

[StoneColdNTO]

Good question............unfortunately I don't have an answer.

[hhajdo]

There's no evidence that ALA improves skeletal muscle glucose transport in normal subjects.
There's little difference in the effect of ALA & r-ALA in insulin resistant subjects, so I don't see any reason to stack them.

[J steel]

thats interesting hhajdo..........so do you believe the only use for ALA, whether it be in r form or not, is strictly for liver support?

If thats the case, what would be the recommended dosage. And is it safe to use year round?

[hhajdo]

It's a great antioxidant & liver protector.
1 g is more than enough for that purpose, in some studies 400 mg was used.

[Frankie xq]

wait for ulter

[macro]

Originally posted by hhajdo
There's no evidence that ALA improves skeletal muscle glucose transport in normal subjects.
There's little difference in the effect of ALA & r-ALA in insulin resistant subjects, so I don't see any reason to stack them.

thats incorrect.


if you would like will pull the study..

which stated that R+ had impact, just that it did not increase impact just post exercise(it did not increase post workout uptake, with a preworkout fasted state..) though the amount of carbs used was so low as to be a "non" test.

and there is a huge difference between racemate and R+ in insulin resistant subjects- there are quite a # of studies that indicate this.

pls. stop repeating nandi's foolish comments. because he does not know what he is talking about. as surprisingly enough he has not taken either. (the reason for which is quite amusing)

btw- if they are your foolish comments.. well...

[J steel]

well i am going to give it a try macro, i will see for myself if i feel it makes a difference.

so getting back to my question, will taking 1g of ALA along with 4-5 caps r-ALA be too much for my system? Am I better of only taking 500mg ALA with the glucorell? Is there any harm in taking too much?

Also, how does GLA create a "synergistic effect" with r-ALA?

And finally, the AF store stresses that biotin should be taken with ALA........is this strictly r-ALA, or any type of ALA? And why don't I see it offered at your store.

Thanks in advance.

BTW, I appreciate all of the responses guys.

[hhajdo]

That's not nandi's statement,although he's not a fan of ALA either.

It's not true that there's a huge difference between racemate and R+ in insulin resistant subjects in their effect on muscle glucose transport, plasma insulin, etc.... here's a comparison:



Differential effects of lipoic acid stereoisomers on glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle
RYAN S. STREEPER, ERIK J. HENRIKSEN, STEPHAN JACOB, JASON Y. HOKAMA, DONOVAN L. FOGT, AND HANS J. TRITSCHLER

Streeper, Ryan S., Erik J. Henriksen, Stephan Jacob, Jason Y. Hokama, Donovan L. Fogt, and Hans J.
Tritschler. Differential effects of lipoic acid stereoisomers on glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle. Am.
J. Physiol. 273 (Endocrinol. Metab. 36): El&j--E191, 1997. The racemic mixture of the antioxidant a-lipoic acid (ALA)
enhances insulin-stimulated glucose metabolism in insulin resistant humans and animals. We determined the individual
effects of the pure R-(+) and S-(-) enantiomers of ALA on glucose metabolism in skeletal muscle of an animal model of
insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, and dyslipidemia: the obese Zucker (falfa) rat. Obese rats were treated intraperito-
neally acutely (100 mg/kg body wt for 1 h) or chronically [IO days with 30 mg/kg of R-( +)-ALA or 50 mg/kg of S-(-)-ALA].
Glucose transport [2-deoxyglucose (2-DG) uptake], glycogen synthesis, and glucose oxidation were determined in the
epitrochlearis muscles in the absence or presence of insulin (13.3 nM).Acutely, R-(+)-ALA increased insulin-mediated
2-DG uptake by 64% (P < 0.05), whereas S-(-)-ALA had no significant effect. Although chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment
significantly reduced plasma insulin (17%) and free fatty acids (FFA; 35%) relative to vehicle-treated obese animals,
S-(-)-ALA treatment further increased insulin (15%) and had no effect on FFA. Insulin-stimulated 2-DG uptake was in-
creased by 65% by chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment whereas S-(-)-ALA administration resulted in only a 29% improve-
ment. Chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment elicited a 26% increase in insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis and a 33% enhance-
ment of insulin-stimulated glucose oxidation.


The antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid enhances insulin-stimulated glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant rat skeletal muscle
S Jacob, RS Streeper, DL Fogt, JY Hokama, HJ Tritschler, GJ Dietze and EJ Henriksen
Department of Physiology, University of Arizona College of Medicine, Tucson, USA.

Insulin resistance of muscle glucose metabolism is a hallmark of NIDDM. The obese Zucker (fa/fa) rat--an animal model of muscle insulin resistance--was used to test whether acute (100 mg/kg body wt for 1 h) and chronic (5-100 mg/kg for 10 days) parenteral treatments with a racemic mixture of the antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (ALA) could improve glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle. Glucose transport activity (assessed by net 2-deoxyglucose [2-DG] uptake), net glycogen synthesis, and glucose oxidation were determined in the isolated epitrochlearis muscles in the absence or presence of insulin (13.3 nmol/l). Severe insulin resistance of 2-DG uptake, glycogen synthesis, and glucose oxidation was observed in muscle from the vehicle-treated obese rats compared with muscle from vehicle-treated lean (Fa/-) rats. Acute and chronic treatments (30 mg.kg-1.day-1, a maximally effective dose) with ALA significantly (P < 0.05) improved insulin-mediated 2-DG uptake in epitrochlearis muscles from the obese rats by 62 and 64%, respectively. Chronic ALA treatment increased both insulin-stimulated glucose oxidation (33%) and glycogen synthesis (38%) and was associated with a significantly greater (21%) in vivo muscle glycogen concentration. These adaptive responses after chronic ALA administration were also associated with significantly lower (15-17%) plasma levels of insulin and free fatty acids. No significant effects on glucose transporter (GLUT4) protein level or on the activities of hexokinase and citrate synthase were observed. Collectively, these findings indicate that parenteral administration of the antioxidant ALA significantly enhances the capacity of the insulin-stimulatable glucose transport system and of both oxidative and nonoxidative pathways of glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant rat skeletal muscle.


So, both have similar effects, it's not true that S- inhibits R+, that racemic increases plasma insulin, etc. so as I said I don't see any reason to stack them.

When I made a comment about its effect on insulin sensitive subjects, I was referring to:


J Appl Physiol 92: 50-58, 2002; 10.1152/japplphysiol.000617.2001

Effects of exercise training and antioxidant R-ALA on glucose transport in insulin-sensitive rat skeletal muscle


In which no effect was noticed... I did see a study in which it enhanced glucose uptake (in insulin sensitive muscle) in vitro.

[hhajdo]

Originally posted by J steel
well i am going to give it a try macro, i will see for myself if i feel it makes a difference.

so getting back to my question, will taking 1g of ALA along with 4-5 caps r-ALA be too much for my system? Am I better of only taking 500mg ALA with the glucorell? Is there any harm in taking too much?

Also, how does GLA create a "synergistic effect" with r-ALA?

And finally, the AF store stresses that biotin should be taken with ALA........is this strictly r-ALA, or any type of ALA? And why don't I see it offered at your store.

Thanks in advance.

BTW, I appreciate all of the responses guys.

1.5 g wouldn't be too much.
You can find some info about the synergistic effect of ALA & GLA (in insulin resistant subjects) here:

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/278/2/R453

R-ALA (from AF) contains biotin.

[J steel]

great info, thanks hhajdo