(Forum for members to discuss the use of anabolic steroids)
Post By Mr Incredible
More good Info on PCT/HCG/Recovery/Gyno....... by "Visions"
This is a very long read with helpful info....covering many area's. Enjoy
HCG & PCT
Post Cycle Therapy actually starts from the beginning of the cycle... To ensure recovery during PCT, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is used to keep the leydig cells of the testes functioning throughout the cycle so that shutdown doesn't happen... Each shot of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) triggers a peak output in 72hrs... taking shots sooner then 72hrs can run the risk of overstimulation which can impede their output... Clinical studies do take shots every 48hrs but for our use I would prefer to err on the side of caution... anyway for our needs taking the shots e3d or 2 X a week works great... but I must say that e3d is optimal... Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) needs to be started from the beginning of the cycle, contrary to what most guys believe, shutdown starts when they take their first steroid shot and the body quickly notices an androgen and starts to shutdown its production of Test... Waiting longer to start runs the risk that partial shutdown happens and not all the leydig cells will respond...
What I have recommended in the past is either 500iu's e3d or 500iu 2 X a week from the beginning of the cycle until 4 days before PCT starts... what I would like to see changed is to take 1500iu's for each of the last 2 shots... this will ensure full functioning for when PCT starts... My PCT recommendation will stay the same except now I'll recommend that as little as 25mg of Clomid a day is highly effective at stimulating normal test production... Week 1-3 of PCT = 25-100mg Clomid ed,,,You choose your dose of Clomid as anything in that range works great. Week 1-6 of PCT = 25mg Aromasin ed... I would like to add that its been shown in clinical studies that as little as 25mg ed of Clomid is effective to stimulate normal test production and at this dose no negative sides were noted so if you used clomid in the past and didn't like the negative sides then it may have been dose related... Gustavo77 found this study and this info is sure to help out alot of guys that would normally get negative sides from clomid and at this 25mg dose they can now bipass the negative sides yet be very effective... Here is the link to the study... This study will show test levels 600+ which is good... Other studies that I havn't given a link to yet show test levels 800+ when 100mg is taken... so its your choice to how much Clomid you want to take as both doses are effective...
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
Deca and Tren can shut guys down hard and the last 2 shots of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) being 1500iu's will greatly help ensure full funtioning before PCT starts...
Anytime you use Deca or Tren , Cabaser(Cabergoline, Dostinex) needs to be used from the beginning and through PCT... I find that taking a smaller dose ed works best and it keeps the libido up and running much better... .25mg ed works great for me... less or more can be taken to find what works for you...
As with any drug you should be aware of any potential side affects and Clomid does have the potential for a certain side affect that is rare and I've never known anyone to get it at all yet I believe you should be aware of it so you can make an imformed judgement before using it for the first time...
Here is the study:
Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate. [Arch Ophthalmol. 1995] - PubMed Result
Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate.
Midwest Eye Institute, Methodist Hospital of Indiana, Indianapolis, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To identify a distinctive constellation of persistent visual abnormalities secondary to treatment with clomiphene citrate. DESIGN: Description of the clinical findings in three patients with visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene treatment. SETTING: A neuro-ophthalmology referral center. PATIENTS: Three women aged 32 to 36 years treated for infertility with clomiphene for 4 to 15 months. RESULTS: All three patients experienced prolonged afterimages (palinopsia), shimmering of the peripheral field, and photophobia while undergoing treatment with clomiphene. The results of the neuro-ophthalmologic examination and electrophysiologic studies were normal in all three patients. Unlike previously reported cases, visual symptoms did not resolve on cessation of treatment. Patients remain symptomatic from 2 to 7 years after discontinuing treatment with the medication. CONCLUSIONS: Treatment with clomiphene can cause prolonged visual disturbance. Patients who develop such symptoms should be advised that continued administration may cause irreversible changes. Women with characteristic visual symptoms should be questioned about past use of clomiphene.
PMID: 7710399 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Recommendations without Clomid
For those that havn't used Clomid before and are afraid to use it here are my recommendations:
500iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 2 X a week throughout the cycle,,, the last 2 shots before PCT use 1500ius each shot,,, this will be a boost to get all leydig cells to respond... PCT= 500iu's Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) e3d for 5 shots along with 25mg Aromasin ed for 6 weeks... The Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during PCT is getting your leydig cells up to full production but Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as I mentioned before mimics LH and FSH so during this time LH and FSH is suppressed... LH and FSH production will kick in when the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is stopped and estrogen levels drop below normal which with the Aromasin will ensure that it does and LH will kick in on high as it normally would do after any cycle the difference is now the leydig cells are ready to respond and they will at full production...
I want to explain this further so you completely understand... Lets say you did a cycle with no Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout the cycle and did a Nolva PCT,,,Clomid Aromasin PCT or the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) Aromasin PCT... During the cycle the leydig cells of the testes would completely shut down... After shutting down the leydig cell have a hard time responding to the body's natural production of LH... Even after this cycle the body's LH production will go into high gear... the problem is the leydig cells don't respond well now because of being shut down... Now you do your Nolva pct... Nolva isn't shown in any studies that I can find to increase Test production so what it would do for PCT I don't know(if a study is found I will take that into consideration but there is overwhelming evidence how AI's work so even if 1 study is found there is much more evidence showing how AI's work fantastly)... Even a clomid/Aromasin PCT without Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout the cycle makes recovery hard because it will take time for the leydig cells to respond to the LH production that Clomid is telling your body to produce... infact you may not completely recover 100% after any cycle if the leydig cells are allowed to shut down during the cycle... Even the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) PCT after allowing the leydig cells to shut down makes it hard for the leydig cells to respond and their response is progressive as the shots progress...
I receive many PM's about PCT and have given this simular advice with great success... mostly to guys that did other PCT's using Nola and didn't recover... also alot of them were on very long cycles without the use of HCG... The key is using the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout the cycle and starting it from the beginning because if you skip this part its harder for the testes to respond to anything...
Gyno, Estrogen, AI's, Nolva and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)
Misconceptions during PCT
Pound4Pound: Could I get your thoughts on this, someone else was telling me not to use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in PCT because it will drive estrogen TOO low and cause an estrogen rebound. This is what he said,
His Friend: "Arimidex should not be used post cycle because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground, and we don't want that, do we?).
If you overlap the Arimidex with the Nolvadex, then your estrogen levels will be kept in check. On cycle, there is more test to be converted into estrogen, so Arimidex would be more of a necessity if you're sensitive to estrogen. However, post-cycle, during PCT, you natural testosterone levels are being restored which range from 2-11mg per day. The estrogen conversion will be significantly lower with your natural testosterone range, therefore Nolvadex (and Clomid if you include this in the mix) will be sufficient at combating estrogen while increasing LH production. In addition, there is no estrogen rebound when discontinuing the Nolvadex. There is estrogen rebound when discontinuing Arimidex. By switching over to Nolvadex you will be fighting estrogen from the rebound. If you decided to use Arimidex during PCT along with hCG, then you will have nothing to fight the rebound of estrogen."
Visions: Glad you brought this up... Unfortunately your friends logic is completely wrong and I'll prove it to you... I'll Pick it apart one by one... Your friend talks about Arimidex but I'm going to talk about Aromasin too because thats what I recommend for good reasons... There are alot of statements so try to follow everything I say by first reading over his statement... I'll break it apart and make comments... Some sentences I'll have to break apart because of the complex answer to each statement... to be able to follow you may need to reread the full sentence again because my answers are long... at the end I'll sum it up and then explain what happens when you follow my protocol...
His Friend: "Arimidex should not be used post cycle because the risk of driving estrogen too low,
Visions:Since your friend didn't talk about the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during a cycle he's probably used to the old way of thinking so I'll pick apart this first statement as if Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) wasn't used since he didn't mention it... but even if he did my answer would be the same but would point out the need for the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) even more... Most PCT's start 2 weeks after their last shot of Test E or Cyp... The 1/2 life of these is roughly 7 days... this means that in 7 days 1/2 of the steroid is out of your system... another 7 days half of that is out etc so in reality its not out of your system for 3 weeks but after 2 we don't really feel it but its there... this is why when Dr's give you a shot of Sust they say its good for 4 weeks yet we as body builds say its only good for 3 weeks yet in reality its still in our system for 4 buy by the 4th week its not an amount we thing does much so we start our PCT in 3 weeks... Now you have to take into consideration that the amounts we use are usually 5 X or more then what the Dr would give you... Example: 500mg of Test E a week... within 7 days 250mg is out of our system... 7 more days and now we are at 125mg ... that means starting week 3 we have 125mg in us and thats an amount for a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose from the DR so in week 3 we have normal or above normal levels of Testosterone and estrogen... Yet your friend states that estrogen is already too low to use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) when in fact its in the perfect level to start to trigger test production...
Roid Calculator - half lifes steroids ester half-life
His Friend: and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile,
Visions:#1 Arimidex isn't good for the lipid profile and its why I recommend Aromasin which doesn't affect the lipid Profile... 2 weeks after your last shot you can see you still need an AI... yes the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) will drop estrogen below normal but this is what stimulates test production by putting LH in high gear... Now you have to consider the biggest players in the bad lipid profile---The high androgens from the cycle plus the diet with huge amounts unsaturated fats from all the proteins... The lipid profile isn't something you will be able to control during the cycle unless you use a statin... The short period for PCT isn't the culprit and keeping estrogen low at this point isn't going to change the damage during the cycle but what it will do is stimulate test production which in return will increase estrogen levels to just below normal as production gets to full production...
His Friend: the risk of driving estrogen too low is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground, and we don't want that, do we?).
Visions: Low estrogen doesn't kill the libido... high estrogen can and does... If you don't believe me give yourself a shot of estrogen... high estrogens bind to androgen receptors making them useless... high estrogens raise shbg which binds to free test... free test is what makes you horny... guys that follow the nolva protocol end up with too much estrogen at the beginning of PCT because of the rebound they get from stopping the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) before estrogen is in the normal range and Nolva has a hard time controling the estrogen at the receptor... Also I would like to see the study that says estrogen makes you horny... Low estrogens killing the libido is a huge misconception and is a funny statement to me... go to your Dr and ask him for a shot of estrogen to make you horny and see how he laughs...
His Friend: If you overlap the Arimidex with the Nolvadex, then your estrogen levels will be kept in check.
Visions: This is completely wrong and is the reason for estrogen rebound after a cycle... I hear about it all the time,,, guys are fine during the cycle using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) , then 2 weeks after their last shot they switch to Nolva for PCT and then they wonder why they get gyno and blame it on estrogen rebound... The reason is they still have too much test in them when they start PCT because the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is keeping Test levels high by not aromatising,,,then they stop the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and the Test aromatises and they start on Nolva which only binds to the estrogen receptors and doesn't do anything to control estrogen... now they have high estrogen levels because they stopped the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) which allowed the high Test level to aromatise and Nolva can't protect them enough from getting gyno so they blame the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) when in fact its their own fault for not continuing the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) at least another1-2 more weeks... Also the high estrogens will keep you shut down until they drop below normal...
His Friend: On cycle, there is more test to be converted into estrogen, so Arimidex would be more of a necessity if you're sensitive to estrogen.
Visions: ( Correct)
His Friend: However, post-cycle, during PCT, you natural testosterone levels are being restored which range from 2-11mg per day. The estrogen conversion will be significantly lower with your natural testosterone range, therefore Nolvadex (and Clomid if you include this in the mix) will be sufficient at combating estrogen while increasing LH production.
Visions: As I have shown estrogen and test levels are still high when PCT starts so an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is needed and in fact your friend proved it when he talked about getting estrogen rebound during PCT... Next is the use of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) lowering estrogen stimulates test production into high gear and up to 60% higher then normal and this is starting with normal levels of estrogen which I have shown is what we start with even without using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during the cycle (big point to remember)... Nolva as I have stated before does nothing to raise Test production and I have yet to find one study saying that it does yet I have found many that say Test levels don't change with its use...what Nolva can do is increase seamen production and it is sometimes used for that if the guy has a problem getting his wife pregnant but at the same time in those studies they said test production didn't increase...
His Friend: In addition, there is no estrogen rebound when discontinuing the Nolvadex.
Visions: He is right to a point... there is no rebound when a normal person takes nolva and in saying this he makes my point one more time that nolva doesn't increase test because if it did you would read in the studies that it could have a rebound because of the higher output of test now being made above normal that is being converted to estrogen... but when on cycle and your Test levels are above normal you will have above normal conversion to estrogen and when you take Nolva it blocks the estrogen from binding but as soon as you stop the use of the nolva that already converted estrogen will now bind to the estrogen receptor and cause the gyno... when people read the studies on drugs like this they have to keep in mind that they are used in normal people with normal levels yet as body builders our levels are well above normal...
His Friend: There is estrogen rebound when discontinuing Arimidex.
Visions: This is true since by stopping Test from converting into estrogen you have more test and this is why the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) should be continued until at least the Test levels are in the normal range which happens about 3 weeks after your last shot as I showed above... There is less rebound from the use of Aromasin since it permanently binds to the armatase enzyme which destroys it leaving less aromatase to convert the Test.... called an irreversible,
steroidal aromatase inactivator.
His Friend: By switching over to Nolvadex you will be fighting estrogen from the rebound.
Visions: I covered this already
His Friend: If you decided to use Arimidex during PCT along with hCG, then you will have nothing to fight the rebound of estrogen."
Visions: The use of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) until test is in the normal range = no rebound
The old school way of thinking lets the testes shutdown during the cycle while also not controling estrogen properly with an AI... Most used to use Nolva and it only blocked the estrogen receptors leaving the high estrogens to fill the androgen receptors and if you have been in the game for a long time and used to do it this way you may have run into the problem of your libido dropping mid cycle and definately during PCT... Also a huge misconception I haven't mentioned yet is guys thought they needed the high estrogens to build more muscle and they would think that blocking or stopping the estrogen hindered gains which is further from the truth since estrogen doesn't build muscle and even though as estrogens rise gh rises, IGF drops which is what builds the muscle...Gyno and bloating were always a concern... recovery can take a long time and you could drop alot of weight and this is another reason why guys would just bridge instead of PCT cause during PCT they would drop too much muscle...
I don't recommend Nolva because there isn't enough evidence pointing to its benifits for PCT for me... maybe there is some info but I can't find it... but there is a ton of info for the use of AI's for not only controling estrogen but also increasing test production safely...
Here are the benifits of using my protocol... first you never get shutdown which is the key benifit,,, not getting shutdown means the leydig cells never stop working as normal,,,(500iu is shown in studies while using 200mg of test a week to make you make 26% more of your own test even while on TRT)... this allows the leydig cells to respond to your normal LH when the cycle ends... Even without the use of Clomid the body's production of LH goes into high gear... clomid just ensures that it happens and at a higher rate... the use of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) throughout the cycle keeps estrogen in the normal range which has many benifits because high estrogens can bind to androgen receptors not only making the androgen receptor useless but in doing so can kill the libido,, high estrogens can upregulate an androgen receptor and turn it into an estrogen receptor... as estrogen rises so does shbg,,, as estrogen rises so does gh but at the same time IGF lowers... high estrogens can cause fatigue and memory problems etc... The use of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) into PCT prevent any estrogen rebound... The use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) up until 4 days prior to PCT not only keeps your testes working, it keeps your Test level in the normal range or above when PCT starts and at the same time estrogen will be just below normal which will soon trigger Test production as soon as your Test level drops below normal... Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mimics LH which keeps your natural LH production shutdown and this is why we switch to Clomid because Clomid triggers natural LH and FSH production into high gear... Clomid triggers higher then normal estrogen levels and the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) helps control this while at the same time the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is triggering more Test production by up to 60% by keeping estrogens low... Even though the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) lowers estrogens this eventually evens out more as the higher test level causes more aromatising and estrogen ends up being in the low normal range...
So when you start PCT your estrogens are about in the normal range because of the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during the cycle and may be a bit higher because of starting the cycle 2 weeks after your last shot of test which I have shown that you'll still have test in you when PCT starts... Yes during PCT estrogen will be greatly lowered but this is what triggers test production and is safely used in many studies to stimulate test production in men
Info on HCG
I recently received this PM and think its important and I'll add more studies when I have time:
Originally Posted by 4thAD
can you point me in the right direction to find the studies of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use @ 500iu 2xew. I know Ive seen them before, but cant seem to locate them on pubmed. Any ideas. I have a friend that is worried about desensitization to LH, and I want to show him that 500iu is safe..
What you will find is studies on boys where they give them Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for 2yrs and they give it to them eod... also studies on the optimal dose being 500iu... I have these studies posted here on the site... where... hahah... i forget... let me find the links
1) This study will show that taking shots everyday doesn't stimulate the leydig cells to respond any better then taking one shot every 72hrs... and from reading other studies I know it can desensitize them...
2) This study shows that even while on 200mg of Test a week Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) can get the testes to work and produce Test... you will see they gave different amounts of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and 500iu's gave a 26% higher response then baseline... meaning they are making 26% more test then normal even with the Testosterone shot... the abstract sums it up but you have to read carefully to understand everything... the shots were given eod but as you already know from the other study shots can be given every 72 hrs with the same results... this is why you will see in my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and PCT protocal that for optimal results shots should be given e3d instead of 2 X a week,,, still for our needs we just need the testes to keep working so they dont shut down...
3)This study shows that if you are shut down during a cycle the response to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) or LH is progressive... I have another study that shows this even more ... if I can find it... I have hundreds of studies to sort through... I try to sort them as I go but alot of them I havn't and I havn't had time to do it...
4)Here is a study that shows a small amount of desensitation after 23 months of using 1500iu's eod... Thats what I would call over stimulation anyway... too much was used and the shots were taken too often... other studies will show no desensitation because they used 500ius... anyway... we will never use that much Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and never for that long... desensitation isn't going to happen because I have erred on the safe side of everything taking into account all aspects of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use in many many studies...
I have more studies... I would have to find them like I said before... this should get you started and you'll see I'm not making things up and that there is logic and studies to back up what I recommend...
PS... If in any way you have messed up your cycle and not done it properly then start a thread and I'll help you get back on track...
Wanting to avoid negative sides?
Thinking of Testosterone Replacement Therapy, called testosterone replacement therapy (TRT)? ...
You've come to the right place for that type of questions...
- Rep Power
i vote sticky
the recommandation of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) used without clomid is a wicked advice. testo-ricovery is very important especialy when you pass over the 30 years. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will not make the trick IMHO.
the % of LH without the amount FSH give an uncomplete idea of how is the HPTA fonction.
interesting for person on TR which what to make some "light" cycle properly with testo.
i would like to read a comment of Macro about it.
this should be a sticky, thanks ozzy
- Rep Power
Completely agree, I've been told in no uncertain terms by a top endo that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will shut down the system the same as test, only at the next level up the chain, it only serves to prepare the testes for post cycle therapy (pct) and if you don't use something to control the estrogen while on it then when you come off you'll have no test within a week or two, no LH/FSH and the excess estrogen from the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use will supress you further
Originally Posted by Kane_Red_Machine
So then what you are saying is that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) has no benefit in or helping in recovery or pct? I find this hard to believe....
Originally Posted by Mr Incredible
- Rep Power
I don't think you understood me quite right, you see as indicated in the first para of your initial thread post, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is all about stimulating the leydig cells of your testes. The reason we do this is with two strategies in mind;
Originally Posted by Ozzy27
1) used throughout the cycle to keep the leydig cells producing natural test and not letting them go to sleep.
2) To reignite them at the end of a cycle if they have been unstimulated for a long time while on cycle. Here Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is used as a set up for pct, to get the testes responding, then you use your SERM to get your body producing LH and the testes will respond to it more readily than if they hadn't been awoken with the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) previousely.
My point in the last post is that when using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) you need to control the estrogen since excessive estrogen is also inhibitary and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulates the body to produce excessive estrogen as well as test.
The action of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulating the testes to produce testosterone is in itself inherently suppressive/inhibitary to the HPTA Axis, just as using testosterone is, don't ever be fooled otherwise. It just occurs at a different link in the chain, specifically upon using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) your hypothalamus will sense that there is more than adequate testosterone in your system and seek to achieve homeostasis by ceasing to produce GnRH and in response the Pituitary gland stops producing Gonadotropins specifically LH.
Last edited by Mr Incredible; 05-14-2009 at 09:46 AM.
Visions whole terminology of "PCT" is from the start of the cycle. He told me that recovery(PCT) begins when your cycle begins , which he is 100% right. I'm not saying and he surely isn't saying to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for pct!!
And Mr. Incredible....I must have misunderstood you...because that is exactly what I believe the purpose of running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout cycle is for. To mimic the bodies own secretion of testosterone from the leydig cells.
- Rep Power
just read the thread and replies... kind of confused....
I am getting ready to start my first cycle after a few years off (only one previously)....
I have sustanon 250 mg
How should I use these for best results and from what I just read, do I need to get the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for during the cycle ?? How log should I run this and what EXACTLY should I do for post cycle...??? Please be specific as I am practically a newbie at being on a cycle. Everything I find on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) state that it is for weight loss and not as you described.... how or where can I get teh Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ?
Thanks again !
First time in long time for me... last time was dbol only (good results actually) Really want to get this right this time ! Thanks soooo much for any help and insight.
Last edited by SeanMW; 05-27-2011 at 04:53 PM.
Reason: need info
- Rep Power
Sad that the previous question from SeanMW did not get any response or answers to his question(s).
Can you not think of a plausible answer gents???
nobody probly answered because he bumped a 2 yr old thread, just like you bumped it again from where sean left off 9months ago....nice job bro!
- Rep Power
Home owners insurance
For me it was nice to know that it is possible to check cheap quotes for homes during some minutes..
Have a nice day
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