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  1. #1
    Bad ass mutha fucka! Flapjack's Avatar
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    Injecting Winstrol
    I'm starting a cycle on Jan 1 and will be doing Sust and Winny...this will be my 8th or so cycle. I will be doing 50 mg ED and rotating between, shoulders and quads (will save the glutes for the Sust).

    I have heard alot of bad things about injecting Winstrol (winny) ie: ulcers, abcesses, pain...

    Whats' the deal? I am using IP (Europe) Stanozolol and have read good things about it.

    What's you opinion...not on the brand, but on the ijection issues.

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    Hello ??? rocko419's Avatar
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    I would inject into my shoulders (winstrol) that is and never really had an issue. I guess Winstrol (winny) can sting a little bit but didn***8217;t bother me at all. Just for the hell of it wether it really helps or not i all ways inject real slow. If you want on your sustanon injection days you can mix it with the Winstrol (winny) and it really wont hurt at all. Not to mention cuzz of the Winstrol (winny) being water base it will thin out your sust and make for a nice smooth injection from a 25g pin. jmo.......And fyi my winstrol was from EC and I really enjoyed it.

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    Bad ass mutha fucka! Flapjack's Avatar
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    Okay, if you mix it, I'm guessing the pressure will change once it hit the water base?

    Hoe do you know if you have all the air out if you can't see the bubbles?

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    A Legend GymLift's Avatar
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    Many of us don't recommend mixing water/oil into a single injection.

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    lol, many of us don't recommend injecting IP.
    Actually I don't see the sense of injecting any oral drug like d-bol or winstrol you may as well drink it same effect, same liver toxicity.

  6. #6
    A Legend GymLift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
    lol, many of us don't recommend injecting IP.
    Actually I don't see the sense of injecting any oral drug like d-bol or winstrol you may as well drink it same effect, same liver toxicity.
    Wait, you can drink Winstrol (winny) !?


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    Quote Originally Posted by GymLift View Post
    Wait, you can drink Winstrol (winny) !?


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    Quote Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
    Actually I don't see the sense of injecting any oral drug like d-bol or winstrol you may as well drink it same effect, same liver toxicity.
    Hey Lifts,


    What your opinion on this study;

    Got this off of Brock Strasser's column on T - Mag


    Q: There's this huge debate raging over whether or not you can "drink" your Winny-V. I know that because stanozolol is 17-AA'ed, I can use it orally. However, how much more or less effective is oral stanozolol over injected stanozolol? I hear that you need about twice as much stanozolol orally as you would injected to see similar results. How was this figure of doubling the dose orally determined?

    A: There isn't a lot of great pharmacokinetic data in humans comparing oral to parenteral (injectable) stanozolol. So that idea of "if you use X amount by injection you need twice as much orally" is anecdotal and speculative at best. The best I could find is a study comparing the two methods of administration in dogs. My comments come after the abstract:

    The effect of stanozolol on 15-nitrogen retention in the dog

    Can J Vet Res 2000 Oct;64(4):246-8 (ISSN: 0830-9000)

    Olson ME; Morck DW; Quinn KB [Find other articles with these Authors] Animal Health Unit and Gastrointestinal Sciences, University of Calgary, Alberta.

    The objective of the study was to determine the influence of either oral or intramuscular administration of stanozolol on nitrogen retention in dogs by using a non-invasive 15N-amino acid tracer technique. Ten healthy, intact, adult male sled dogs received either stanozolol tablets, 2 mg/dog PO, q12h, for 25 days (Group 1, n = 5) or an intramuscular injection of 25 mg of stanozolol on Days 7, 14, 21, and 28 (Group 2, n = 5). A 15N amino acid (5.27 mmol) was infused intravenously into each dog on Day 0 (before stanozolol treatment) and on Day 31 (after stanozolol treatment). Urine was collected by catheterization from each animal 3 times daily for 3 consecutive days. The 15N-urea enrichment in urine was determined by high-resolution mass spectrometry and the total amount of urea in the urine was determined.

    Both oral and injectable stanozolol resulted in significant (P < 0.05) increases in amino acid nitrogen retention compared to pretreatment values. Oral stanozolol increased nitrogen retention from 29.2 +/- 8.2% to 50.3 +/- 9.2%, while stanozolol injection increased nitrogen retention from 26.6 +/- 9.9% to 67.0 +/- 7.5%. The response to intramuscular administration was significantly greater than the response to the oral dosing regime. Stanozolol increases amino acid nitrogen retention in dogs, as has been previously observed in rats. This action of stanozolol may be beneficial in dogs under stress of surgical trauma and chronic disease.

    Okay, so the oral dose was 28mg/week and the injected dose was 25mg/week. And the injected dose was far better at increasing nitrogen retention (67.0% versus 50.3%). This makes it about 33.2% better (roughly speaking), so if I extrapolate, it means to see the same effects as 25mg of injected stanozolol per week, you'd need to take about 38mg of it orally.

    This isn't quite "twice the injected dose" and is, in fact, closer to 50% (52% or so actually). So if you assume the dog model is correct, or nearly so in other mammals like humans, you'd need about 50% more stanozolol orally than you would if you injected it. So if you used 50mg of injected Winstrol every other day, it would be a safe bet to assume 37.5mg of stanozolol used orally every day would provide a similar effect.
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  9. #9
    Hi Perfection Awaits's Avatar
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    I think people overdose Winstrol (winny) orally. Like the study SCNTO posted, 35mg ED is plenty.

    Winny sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneColdNTO View Post
    Hey Lifts,


    What your opinion on this study;

    Got this off of Brock Strasser's column on T - Mag


    Q: There's this huge debate raging over whether or not you can "drink" your Winny-V. I know that because stanozolol is 17-AA'ed, I can use it orally. However, how much more or less effective is oral stanozolol over injected stanozolol? I hear that you need about twice as much stanozolol orally as you would injected to see similar results. How was this figure of doubling the dose orally determined?

    A: There isn't a lot of great pharmacokinetic data in humans comparing oral to parenteral (injectable) stanozolol. So that idea of "if you use X amount by injection you need twice as much orally" is anecdotal and speculative at best. The best I could find is a study comparing the two methods of administration in dogs. My comments come after the abstract:

    The effect of stanozolol on 15-nitrogen retention in the dog

    Can J Vet Res 2000 Oct;64(4):246-8 (ISSN: 0830-9000)

    Olson ME; Morck DW; Quinn KB [Find other articles with these Authors] Animal Health Unit and Gastrointestinal Sciences, University of Calgary, Alberta.

    The objective of the study was to determine the influence of either oral or intramuscular administration of stanozolol on nitrogen retention in dogs by using a non-invasive 15N-amino acid tracer technique. Ten healthy, intact, adult male sled dogs received either stanozolol tablets, 2 mg/dog PO, q12h, for 25 days (Group 1, n = 5) or an intramuscular injection of 25 mg of stanozolol on Days 7, 14, 21, and 28 (Group 2, n = 5). A 15N amino acid (5.27 mmol) was infused intravenously into each dog on Day 0 (before stanozolol treatment) and on Day 31 (after stanozolol treatment). Urine was collected by catheterization from each animal 3 times daily for 3 consecutive days. The 15N-urea enrichment in urine was determined by high-resolution mass spectrometry and the total amount of urea in the urine was determined.

    Both oral and injectable stanozolol resulted in significant (P < 0.05) increases in amino acid nitrogen retention compared to pretreatment values. Oral stanozolol increased nitrogen retention from 29.2 +/- 8.2&#37; to 50.3 +/- 9.2%, while stanozolol injection increased nitrogen retention from 26.6 +/- 9.9% to 67.0 +/- 7.5%. The response to intramuscular administration was significantly greater than the response to the oral dosing regime. Stanozolol increases amino acid nitrogen retention in dogs, as has been previously observed in rats. This action of stanozolol may be beneficial in dogs under stress of surgical trauma and chronic disease.

    Okay, so the oral dose was 28mg/week and the injected dose was 25mg/week. And the injected dose was far better at increasing nitrogen retention (67.0% versus 50.3%). This makes it about 33.2% better (roughly speaking), so if I extrapolate, it means to see the same effects as 25mg of injected stanozolol per week, you'd need to take about 38mg of it orally.

    This isn't quite "twice the injected dose" and is, in fact, closer to 50% (52% or so actually). So if you assume the dog model is correct, or nearly so in other mammals like humans, you'd need about 50% more stanozolol orally than you would if you injected it. So if you used 50mg of injected Winstrol every other day, it would be a safe bet to assume 37.5mg of stanozolol used orally every day would provide a similar effect.
    The dog model may not be correct, because winstrol as most drugs are broken down by the cyp enzymes, man only has 15% of his total cyp enzymes in the stomach and 85% in the liver. Now if a dog has a greater ratio of cyp enzymes in stomach than man, then oral route administration would be less effective in dogs. Although off hand I'm uncertain how much cyp is contained in a dog GIT.



    I found this tidbit, not exactly what I was looking for but:
    "The Cytochrome P450 enzymes participate in the metabolism of drugs. Induction, or inhibition of these enzymes have been studied in great detail in humans and families of these enzymes have been identified. CYP-3A4 are probably the most important of this group because they have the largest number of substrates (about half the drugs currently prescribed). However, CYP-2D6, -1A2, -2C9, and -2C19 also can be important. Animals also have these families of enzymes, although the activity of each group is not the same as in humans (Chauret et al,1997). Of the species compared, (dog, cat, and horse) none of them resemble the same pattern as humans. "



    Another important fact is that there is a chemical in grapefruit juice that inhibits the stomach CYP enzyme action, so all orals will be more potent/effective taken with grapefruit juice.
    Last edited by liftsiron; 12-17-2008 at 05:36 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfection Awaits View Post
    I think people overdose Winstrol (winny) orally. Like the study SCNTO posted, 35mg ED is plenty.

    Winny sucks.
    im glad someone can has the same opinion as me.

    Dont know why no1's asked this yet, but whats your goals for this cycle? i mean i'm not the biggest Winstrol (winny) fan but if u wanna see results ur gunna want low bf&#37;.

    oh and i didn't have issues with winny.

  12. #12
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    Why grapefruit juice works:

    J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2005 Mar;312(3):1151-60. Epub 2004 Oct 14.Click here to read Links
    Two major grapefruit juice components differ in time to onset of intestinal CYP3A4 inhibition.
    Paine MF, Criss AB, Watkins PB.

    General Clinical Research Center, Room 3005 Bldg. APCF, CB# 7600, UNC Hospitals, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7600, USA. mpaine@med.unc.edu

    Grapefruit juice elevates blood levels of some drugs taken orally, primarily by inhibiting intestinal CYP3A4-mediated first-pass metabolism. Two prominent furanocoumarins in the juice, 6',7'-dihydroxybergamottin (DHB) and bergamottin (BG), have been demonstrated as important contributors to grapefruit juice-drug interactions. Using CYP3A4-expressing Caco-2 cells and representative probes from distinct CYP3A4 substrate subgroups (midazolam, testosterone), we compared the time-dependent inhibitory properties of DHB and BG. DHB rapidly inhibited CYP3A4 activity in a substrate-independent fashion with maximal inhibition (>/=85%) generally occurring within 30 min. In contrast, BG had a slower onset and exhibited substrate-dependent inhibition. Whereas testosterone 6beta-hydroxylation was inhibited by >50% with all exposure times (0.5-3 h), midazolam 1'-hydroxylation was unaffected, or even activated, with short exposure times (<1 h). After a 3-h exposure, however, BG had begun to "catch up" with DHB, causing >/=70% inhibition, independent of substrate. Likewise, loss of CYP3A4 protein, believed to reflect rapid intracellular degradation of the enzyme following mechanism-based inactivation, was comparable between the furanocoumarins (40-50%). The time course of BG-mediated inhibition was similar after just a 30-min exposure, indicating that the short exposure presumed to occur after juice ingestion is sufficient to initiate the events required to cause substantial inhibition (>/=50%). These results suggest that after ingestion of a glass of grapefruit juice, CYP3A4 is maximally inhibited by DHB before BG has the opportunity to act. However, foods containing BG but not DHB (e.g., lime juice) could produce a substrate-dependent interaction with drugs consumed concomitantly, but a substrate-independent interaction with drugs taken several hours after food consumption.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
    lol, many of us don't recommend injecting IP.
    Actually I don't see the sense of injecting any oral drug like d-bol or winstrol you may as well drink it same effect, same liver toxicity.
    i agree with you on not injecting Winstrol (winny) or any oral drug. but just for arguments sake, i was under the impression that injecting lets say Winstrol (winny) is less liver toxic then oral?

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    Quote Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER View Post
    i agree with you on not injecting Winstrol (winny) or any oral drug. but just for arguments sake, i was under the impression that injecting lets say Winstrol (winny) is less liver toxic then oral?
    Actually injecting a 17aa drug would be more liver toxic. Because if you injest a 17aa drug your stomach has 15&#37; of the cyp enzymes that break down the drug. So a portion is metabolized there. However if you you inject a 17aa drug all must be circulated into the liver for breakdown. When you hear someone referring to injecting a drug so that it misses "first pass metabolism", most think that means first pass in the liver. First pass metabolism refers to metabolism in the GIT which reduces some of the drugs toxic elements.

  15. #15
    A Legend GymLift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
    Actually injecting a 17aa drug would be more liver toxic. Because if you injest a 17aa drug your stomach has 15% of the cyp enzymes that break down the drug. So a portion is metabolized there. However if you you inject a 17aa drug all must be circulated into the liver for breakdown. When you hear someone referring to injecting a drug so that it misses "first pass metabolism", most think that means first pass in the liver. First pass metabolism refers to metabolism in the GIT which reduces some of the drugs toxic elements.
    Good post.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
    Why grapefruit juice works:

    J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2005 Mar;312(3):1151-60. Epub 2004 Oct 14.Click here to read Links
    Two major grapefruit juice components differ in time to onset of intestinal CYP3A4 inhibition.
    Paine MF, Criss AB, Watkins PB.

    General Clinical Research Center, Room 3005 Bldg. APCF, CB# 7600, UNC Hospitals, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7600, USA. mpaine@med.unc.edu

    Grapefruit juice elevates blood levels of some drugs taken orally, primarily by inhibiting intestinal CYP3A4-mediated first-pass metabolism. Two prominent furanocoumarins in the juice, 6',7'-dihydroxybergamottin (DHB) and bergamottin (BG), have been demonstrated as important contributors to grapefruit juice-drug interactions. Using CYP3A4-expressing Caco-2 cells and representative probes from distinct CYP3A4 substrate subgroups (midazolam, testosterone), we compared the time-dependent inhibitory properties of DHB and BG. DHB rapidly inhibited CYP3A4 activity in a substrate-independent fashion with maximal inhibition (>/=85%) generally occurring within 30 min. In contrast, BG had a slower onset and exhibited substrate-dependent inhibition. Whereas testosterone 6beta-hydroxylation was inhibited by >50% with all exposure times (0.5-3 h), midazolam 1'-hydroxylation was unaffected, or even activated, with short exposure times (<1 h). After a 3-h exposure, however, BG had begun to "catch up" with DHB, causing >/=70% inhibition, independent of substrate. Likewise, loss of CYP3A4 protein, believed to reflect rapid intracellular degradation of the enzyme following mechanism-based inactivation, was comparable between the furanocoumarins (40-50%). The time course of BG-mediated inhibition was similar after just a 30-min exposure, indicating that the short exposure presumed to occur after juice ingestion is sufficient to initiate the events required to cause substantial inhibition (>/=50%). These results suggest that after ingestion of a glass of grapefruit juice, CYP3A4 is maximally inhibited by DHB before BG has the opportunity to act. However, foods containing BG but not DHB (e.g., lime juice) could produce a substrate-dependent interaction with drugs consumed concomitantly, but a substrate-independent interaction with drugs taken several hours after food consumption.
    Grapefruit juice can both greatly help and harm different drugs. It all depends on the drugs chemical structure, and use.

    Birth control, for example, is something you do not want to mix with grapefruit juice.

  17. #17
    Bad ass mutha fucka! Flapjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuckOprah View Post
    im glad someone can has the same opinion as me.

    Dont know why no1's asked this yet, but whats your goals for this cycle? i mean i'm not the biggest Winstrol (winny) fan but if u wanna see results ur gunna want low bf%.

    oh and i didn't have issues with winny.
    I plan on competing in June, and this is my jan 1 - Feb 28 cycle. I will run it as follows:

    50 mg Winstrol (winny) ED
    250 mg sust E3D

    PCT will be Clomid

    then:

    April 1 - June 15

    125 mg Sust EOD (week 1 - 12)
    100 mg EQ EOD (week 3 - 12)
    150 Tren Ace EOD (week 5 - 12)

    (all in the same inject = 2.5cc's)

    Again, PCT will be Clomid.
    HCG is on hand

  18. #18
    Bad ass mutha fucka! Flapjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
    lol, many of us don't recommend injecting IP.
    Actually I don't see the sense of injecting any oral drug like d-bol or winstrol you may as well drink it same effect, same liver toxicity.
    IP China, or IP Europe?

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