(Forum for members to discuss the use of anabolic steroids)
Stanozolol Vs. Test - Rumble Round: 1
Anabolic Rating: 100
Active-Life: 15-16 days
Drug Class: Androgenic/Anabolic Steroid (For injection)
Average Reported Dosage: Men 200-1000mg weekly
Acne: Yes, common
Water Retention: Yes, high
High Blood Pressure: Yes
Liver Toxic: No
DHT conversion: Yes
Decreases HPTA Function: Yes
Average Price: $6/amp
Active-Life: About 48 hours
Drug Class: Anabolic/Androgenic steroid (Oral)
Average Reported Dosage: Males 50-100-mg daily.....Women 25-50mg/week
Water Retention: No
High Blood Pressure: Rare
Liver Toxic: High in high oral dosages
DHT Conversion: None
Decreases HPTA Function: Low
Average Price:Up to $1/10mg tab
EVERYONE says run test, if test is so good... then why does winny have over 3x the anabolic rating? it has nearly no side effects, ie.. water ret., acne, blood pressure. its Estrogen blocking. aka no bitch tits. the hpta function fuck over is slight. so i get to keep my testies... the only down side i can see from winny is the fact that its moderate rated liver toxic. but thats why i was limiting my cycle to 5 weeks at a time. the and/ana ratio of winny is 30:320 ... while test is around 70:100. am i missing something? i dont understand
- Rep Power
Ya im with you on this one.
If you stick to oral only cycles you won't get the results. The growth you see in people is directly attributable to Testosterone and the only way to get large quantities is injection. This cannot be done orally. If you could take a pill that did the same as 500mg test you would, everyone would.
Testosterone should be the base for all your cycles. test should be used for a first cycle as it naturally occurs in the body, by using it for your first cycle, you can learn how you body reacts.
Last edited by zephyrdaz; 09-15-2008 at 11:12 AM.
Reason: Still can't spell
i believe the mood of the moment is to be against winny. i believe it has a bad impact on your blood pressure and other stuff. i like winny a lot as i have noticed no real sides and a nice lean hard look. i still would include test in a cycle because it helps increase mass and makes me a sexual tyrannosaurus.
Ummm no side effects?
how about lowering your HDL dramatically and making your joints brittle and much more vulnerable to injury??
look. test is your bodies natural hormone. you will need it as a backing for almost every cycle you decide to do. The anabolic androgenic ratio is a RATIO. it doesn't mean you will gain more lean mass on winny than on test.
test is best. being cautious is thats a good thing. but think about it. these are drugs evaluated by medical practices. therefore, every side-effect must be listed regaurdless of how irregular its occurance is.
worried about bitch tits, high blood pressure? at 400 m/wk you really shouldnt be but grab some a-dex in case. winny can shut you down hard to bro.
winny is for guys pre-conest IMO. be smart. do test.
i have heard that it can make your joint feel "dry" but that was in higher doses. a few guys have told me they never had that problem with a lower dose. i dont plan on taking more than 50mg a day for prolly 6-8 weeks. depending on how i feel at the end of 6 weeks. and so i have to watch out for it to boost my cholesterol? thats not permanent right?
Last edited by 40ozFatality; 09-15-2008 at 12:45 PM.
yeah but what test would you suggest....enan or prop???/
Originally Posted by zephyrdaz
id go with enanthate. less frequent injections and less painful injections. if one is so desperate to see some gains quickly then they can pop some dbols.
Originally Posted by sean usmc
do you like your balls? i know i do... d-bol has to be one of the worst ones. de-baller. my buddy said his balls hurt after just 1 injection. plus i hear soon as you stop taking it you drop 80% of what you gained. bloat...
if one is so desperate to see some gains quickly then they can pop some dbols.
what do you guys think of test cypionate? i have been told thats pretty good. im thinking about taking Cpt.Awesomes advice and maybe stacking a small dose of test with the winny. any suggestions?
Last edited by 40ozFatality; 09-15-2008 at 02:12 PM.
after reading your last few posts i dont think you are ready for steroids.
Originally Posted by 40ozFatality
It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. Tendons tear easily on it.
not a boost in cholesterol a decrease in HDL. No, it will not necessarily return to normal after. do some research on cholesterol. learn the difference between HDL and LDL.
mods and members have all told you winny only is a bad cycle. where there is smoke there is usually fire.
yea sorry, over simped it. lower HDL means more cholesterol... because there is less to carry it away.
Originally Posted by mark444
One injection of what????? D-bol???? Your "buddy" shooting reforvit-b? that's the only d-bol I have ever known to be marketed as an injectable but everyone drank it because it was just about as clean as sewer run off. No ones balls are going to hurt after one injection or dose of anything. I dont know who or where you have obtained your information from but before you post something that is a supposed fact you should know what your taking about.
Originally Posted by 40ozFatality
Your curiosity about winny is understandable, besides the info a few others have posted it is a DHT derivative and if your prone to MPB you can almost watch the hair fall out of your head. BPH is also a concern (DHT)
Here's a decent article about Winny...
Winstrol is a steroid derived from the base structure of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is just testosterone which has been 5alpha-reduced, meaning it has had the c4-5 double bond removed by two hydrogen atoms. This is very interesting from a chemical/biological standpoint. Once this bond is removed, testosterone has become DHT, and DHT is the body’s most potent androgen. DHT has a slew of beneficial effects which are more pronounced than the hormone it’s created out of. DHT is able to increase androgen receptor proliferation for almost 24 full hours (1) DHT also has profound effects on the Central Nervous System (CNS), and this is why we often see profoundly increased aggression with athletes who are using DHT derivatives such as Masteron (which has a deceivingly low anabolic and androgenic rating). As an added benefit, DHT can not aromatize (convert via the aromatase enzyme) into estrogen. It’s also noteworthy that the injectable version of Winstrol is actually the same exact thing as the oral- it’s just micronized Stanozolol powder suspended in water (or sometimes oil).
So what we have in Winstrol is DHT with two modifications- an added c17 methylation, and a very weird “pyrazol” group. The c17 methylation has been added in order to allow Winstrol to survive oral ingestion and the subsequent first pass through the liver. The pyrazol group is a bit weirder- what this means to you and I is that it has another whole “ring” attached to the four ring Steran Nucleus of DHT. Take a look over at the lower left portion of the two molecules below, and you’ll notice that Winstrol has an added cyclopentane (5 sided) group (the pyrazol group):
When we really take a look at Winstrol, the anabolic rating of this product is very high (320% that of testosterone) as compared to its androgenic actions (30% of testosterone). Despite this, Winstrol is really a disappointing drug for size gains. What we typically see with this stuff is some pretty decent strength gains and some nice fat loss if the user isn’t too sloppy with their diet. Not many people report huge weight gains off of Stanozolol. Although many drugs which bind tightly to the androgen receptor are suspected to exhibit their at least some of their lipolytic (fat-burning) effects through receptor binding affinity. The effects of androgens on the regulation of lipolysis in adipose precursor cells.(2), Winstrol remains a potent cutting drug, despite the fact that it has a relatively weak AR binding ability (3). What this tells me is that there’s some stuff going on with regards to Winstrol’s mechanism of action, which doesn’t involve androgen receptor mediated effects. Still, Winstrol is a very potent compound for enhancing protein synthesis (4-5 ) .
As previously discussed, it’s derived from DHT, and DHT is known to have ant-estrogenic effects (6) and Winstrol itself also has anti-progestenic properties (in at least some cases, where it may "block" that receptor) (7). So I think it’s safe to say that some of the “hard” look you can get in your physique from Winstrol is because of it’s ability to inhibit estrogen and progesterone- known culprits in making a physique appear smooth. Unfortunately, since it is 17aa, it is also liver toxic, especially more so when you inject it and it is subject to what is known as the “first pass” through the liver. The difference between taking oral vs. injectable Winstrol, even though it’s technically the same drug, is how and when your body metabolizes it. When you consume a drug orally, that drug is absorbed from the Gastrointestinal tract, where it then passes via the portal vein into the liver -where some drugs are metabolised. This “first pass” can mean that only a certain portion of the drug reaches your body’s bloodstream. As previously discussed, a 17aa has been attached to Winstrol to allow a sizeable portion to survive this metabolism.
First pass metabolism can occur in both the gut and the liver, and where this happens can vary with different drugs. First pass metabolism actually occurs in your gut for some drugs and in the liver for others. Once it has been metabolized, it enters the bloodstream. It’s important to note that when a blood is metabolized in the Gastrointestinal tract, the blood leaving the Gastrointestinal tract does not go right to the heart, but actually still passes through liver via the hepatic portal vein and then ultimately returns to circulation via the hepatic vein. The liver is your body’s filtration unit, and removes large quantities of nutrients, dangerous toxins (or fun toxins, depending on what they are) and other substances from the blood.
So as you can see, when you take an oral steroid such as Winstrol, undergoes a first-pass metabolism in the both the intestines as well as liver. Some drugs can be absorbed more or less totally intact, after only moderate metabolic activity, while some are absorbed only after very extensive metabolic activity. Once it is through this first pass, a given drug then circulates in the blood until it is acquired by another tissue, such as skeletal muscle. Now, if the drug reaches the liver again, it may undergo what is cleverly known as “second-pass” metabolism. Of course, in the case of Winstrol, an injectable version is available, and when we compare the oral and injectable versions of Winstrol and their effects in your body, I think there’s some surprising differences. The injectable is (naturally) put right into your bloodstream and only undergoes the far less extensive second pass metabolism, while the oral must endure the gut and liver on it’s first pass before ending up in circulation.
Now, here’s the interesting part: When you inject Winstrol, instead of taking it orally, you actually get more nitrogen retention (4) (and hence we can infer, more new muscle tissue is being built). SO if you are trying to use Winstrol to build new muscle tissue, the injectable version is going to be far superior to the Oral version. However, there are some advantages that the oral version has over the injectable, including a possible “synergy” with other drugs- but only (primarily) when taken orally.
While in the liver, on it’s first pass, Winstrol is exposed to a variety of enzymes and proteins. To understand how a possible synergy between Winstrol and other steroids may be possible, a little background on Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) is first necessary. For our purposes here, all we need to know is that SHBG is a glycoprotein produced in the liver, which binds to testosterone and makes it biologically unavailable to do all the things we want it to do- like building muscle. It serves to transport testosterone throughout the body, but while it remains bound to testosterone, the testosterone can not exert it’s anabolic effects.
As you can surmise, a very large portion of the testosterone in your body is bound to SHBG. Wouldn’t it be great if we could lower SHBG? With Winstrol we can.
A fairly conservative oral dose of .2mg/kg of Winstrol has been shown to lower SHBG by close to 50%. (8)For me (200lbs) this would mean I would only need around 18mgs/day to free up half of my SHBG bound testosterone! For my omnipresent and hypothetical “100kg bodybuilder”- only 20mgs would be needed (he’s 220 lbs for the metrically impaired among us). Now, with less SHBG floating around in me, my anabolic steroid cycle will be more effective, right? Right.
But why can we only expect such a dramatic lowering of SHBG with the oral? Well, obviously, we’re taking advantage of the first pass through the liver, where we can have our Winstrol interact with SHBG where it’s produced- in the liver…without going through the bloodstream first.
When we take a look at a study done comparing injectable vs. oral contraceptives, we find that the oral version at 70mgs/week (10mgs/day given orally) is more effective at affecting SHBG levels than 400mgs/week given via an injection! (9)In this study, testosterone undecanoate was given at a constant dose along with norestisterone (which raises SHBG). What we see is that when norestisterone is given orally, it produces a far greater effect on SHBG, than when it is administered via an injection. And this is even when the doses of the injectable are 4x higher!
Here’s a chart, illustrating exactly what I’m talking about in this study, which I think suggests very strongly that injectable versions of drugs, when compared with the oral version, will have nowhere near as much of an effect on SHBG:
Group I (Black Circles): Injections of 200 mg NETE at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18 plus injections of 1000 mg TU at study wk 2, 6, 12, and 18 (T free window). Group II (White Diamonds): Injections of 1000 mg TU together with 400 mg NETE at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18. Group III (Grey Squares): Injections of 1000 mg TU at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18 combined with daily oral 10 mg norethisterone acetate (NETE) from week 0 to 24 (9)
Of course, in this study, they’re looking at oral vs. injectable versions of a SHBG raising drug- but what we can take away from it is that SHBG interaction with oral compounds is far more pronounced than it is with injectables.
So lets take a small amount of Winstrol with our cycles, and free up some of those steroids we’re taking, right? Right!
Unless of course, we’re talking about women here…I was recently asked why I recommend that women use the injectable version of Winstrol over the oral. I was asked this question by someone, who I assumed had a female friend who was considering using Winstrol. I then realized I was totally incorrect- not about Winstrol, but about the reason behind the question. You see…I saw a picture of the man who had first asked me the question, and it’s readily apparent to me that he probably doesn’t actually know any women. But still, his question is valid and bears repeating and answering here.
I recommend that women avoid the oral version of this product for the same reason that men will find that it gives them an increased synergy and effectiveness in their cycles.
When SHBG is lowered in women, there is more free testosterone floating around. And as we’ve seen, the oral is going to affect SHBG exponentially more than the injectable will. When we lower SHBG too much in women, we see a strong positive correlation with hyperandrogenism (10 ), and hirsuitism (abnormal growth of body hair), as well In fact, non-SHBG-bound testosterone may actually be the defining characteristic for identifying hyperandrogenism in women. In addition, low SHBG contributes to menstrual irregularity.(11)
Finally, and (partially) anecdotally, we also see a greater incidence of clitoral enlargement and acne when the oral version of Winstrol is used by women instead of the injectable. The reasons for this are obvious- When we increase free testosterone by lowering SHBG, we increase the amount of testosterone which is able to be 5a-reduced to DHT. DHT is the primary culprit for steroid induced acne, and is also the hormone responsible for external genital enlargement. Clearly, this is why we see the increased level of clitoral hypertrophy as well as acne when oral Winstrol is used by women.
We can also see increased acne when men use Winstrol orally, but these effects are relatively minor when a 2mg/kg dose is being used to increase the effectiveness of other steroids in a cycle. This isn’t carte blanche to go using Winstrol for an extended period of time under the excuse that it’s increasing the overall effectiveness of the cycle. Stanozolol has some of the worst liver toxicity (hepatoxicity) of any oral steroid on a mg for mg basis. In addition, it’s deleterious effects on your lipid profile (Cholesterol) are also very pronounced, even at low doses- 6mgs/day of Stanozolol can lower HDL (good cholesterol)by 33% and raise LDL (bad cholesterol) by 29% (12 ).
So, hopefully, you’ve reached the end of this article and realized that Winstrol can be used in any cycle to increase the effectiveness of it, but that it must be used sparingly due to it’s possible hepatoxicity and lipid profile effecting properties. Still, when used in heavy testosterone-based profiles, at a dose that will cut your SHBG levels in half, it can increase you other steroids effectiveness quite a bit…but when maximal protein synthesis is wanted, you need to inject it.
There you go…the differences between oral and injectable Winstrol, and how you can use either form to maximize your gains! And yes, Lyle, you can drink Winny.
im giving my opinion because i have tried the stuff. my balls have never hurt and i didnt inject my dbol. this guy seems to think he knows more about the stuff than people who have used it. that can be dangerous.
Originally Posted by raw lifter
wow, some useful info! thanks for the artical. yea i have no idea about dianabol i have never really looked into it. the kid said he injected it. who knows if it was even real. or if he actually did. but he did double is size in about 6 months. so i know he did something. and when the fuck did i ever say "THIS IS A FACT!" i believe my words were "by buddy said". as in i dont know for a fact. take it how you do. MAYBE you should think on what YOU say before you post it. thanks buddy. regardless. every artical i read about winny says something diff. they all contradict. the only thing they all have in common is the lipid cycle screw over. but from what i hear, 90% of roids do the same. i have never heard anything about the hair loss with winny. but now that you say something about it, it makes sence. so i googled it.
Less Common More Serious Side Effets:
an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives);
swelling of the arms or legs (especially ankles);
frequent or persistent erections, or breast tenderness or enlargement (male patients); or
voice changes (hoarseness, deepening), hair loss, facial hair growth, clitoral enlargement, or menstrual irregularities (female patients).
Less Serious Side Effects:
new or worsening acne;
changes in sexual desire.
WTF?! changes is sexual sesire?! thats a new one...
"---voice changes (hoarseness, deepening), hair loss, facial hair growth, clitoral enlargement, or menstrual irregularities (female patients). ---"
and i believe all of the above here are Female side effects, no?
but seriously, here is an artical from this very site.
Active Life: around 48 hours
Drug Class: Anabolic/Androgenic Steroid (for injection or oral)
Average Dose: Men 50-100 mg/day.....Women 25-50 mg/week
Water Retention: Rare
High Blood Pressure: Rare
Liver Toxic: Yes, it is a 17AA steroid
Aromatization: No, it is a DHT derivative
DHT Conversion: None
Decrease HPTA function: Low
Winstrol® is a popular brand name for the anabolic steroid stanozolol. This compound is a derivative of dihydrotestosterone, although its activity is much milder than this androgen in nature. It is technically classified as an anabolic steroid, shown to exhibit a slightly greater tendency for muscle growth than androgenic activity in early studies. While dihydrotestosterone really only provides androgenic side effects when administered, stanozolol instead provides quality muscle growth. The anabolic properties of this substance are still mild in comparison to many stronger compounds, but it is still a ggod, reliable builder of muscle. Its anabolic properties could even be comparable to Dianabol, but Winstrol does not have the same tendency for water retention. Stanozolol also contains the same c17 methylation we see with Dianabol, an alteration used so that oral administration is possible. To spite this design however, there are many injectable versions of this steroid produced.
Since stanozolol is not capable of converting into estrogen, an anti-estrogen is not necessary when using this steroid, gynecomastia is not a concern even among the most sensitive individuals. Since estrogen is also the cause of water retention, instead of bulk look, Winstrol produces a lean, quality look with no fear of excess subcutaneous fluid retention. This makes it a great steroid to use during cutting cycles, when water and fat retention are a major concern. It is also very popular among athletes in combination strength/speed sports such as Track and Field.
The usual dosage for men is 35-75mg per day for the tablets and 25-50mg per day with the injectable version. It is often combined with other steroids depending on the desired result. For bulking purposes, a stronger androgen like testosterone, Dianabol or Anadrol is usually added. Here Winstrol will balance out the cycle a bit, giving us good anabolic effect with lower overall estrogenic activity than if taking such steroids alone. The result should be a considerable gain in new muscle mass, with a more comfortable level of water and fat retention. For cutting phases Winstrol can be combined with a non-aromatizing androgen such as trenbolone or Halotestin. Such combinations should help bring about the strongly defined, hard look of muscularity so sought after among bodybuilders. Older, more sensitive individuals can add compounds like primobolan, deca-durabolin or Equipoise when wishing to stack this steroid. Here they should see good results and fewer side effects than with standard androgen therapies.
Women usually take around 5-10mg daily. Although female athletes usually find stanozolol very tolerable, the injectable version is usually off limits.
With the structural (c17-AA) alteration, the tablets will also place a higher level of stress on the liver than the injectable (which avoids the "first pass"). During longer or higher dosed cycles, liver values should therefore be watched closely through regular blood work. Although less common, there is still a possibility of liver damage occuring with the injectable form. While it does not enter the body through the liver, it is still broken down by it, providing a lower (but more continuous) level of stress. Such stress would of course be increased with the addition of other c17-AA oral compounds to a cycle of Winstrol. When using such combinations, cautious users would make every effort to limit the length of the cycle (preferably 6 to 8 weeks) and take some form of liver protectants. It should also be noted that both versions of Winstrol have been linked to strong adverse changes in HDL/LDL cholesterol levels. This side effect is common with anabolic steroid therapy, and obviously can become a health concern as the dose/duration of intake increase above normal. The oral version should have a greater impact on cholesterol values than the injectable due to the method of administration, and may therefore be the worse choice of the two for those concerned and this side effect.
The oral use of stanozolol can also have a profound impact on levels of SHBG (sex hormone-binding globulin). This is a characteristic of all anabolic/androgenic steroids, however its potency and form of administration make Winstrol particularly noteworthy in this regard. Since plasma binding proteins such as SHBG act to temporarily constrain steroid hormones from exerting activity, this effect would provide a greater percentage of free (unbound) steroid hormone in the body. This may amount to an effective mechanism in which stanozolol could increase the potency of a concurrently used steroid. To further this purpose one could also addition Proviron, which has an extremely high affinity for SHBG. This affinity may cause Proviron to displace other weaker substrates for SHBG (such as testosterone), another mechanism in which the free hormone level may be increased. Adding Winstrol and Proviron to your next testosterone cycle may therefore prove very useful,, markedly enhancing the free state of this potent muscle building androgen.
Last edited by 40ozFatality; 09-15-2008 at 05:15 PM.
you may not have said "this is a fact" and you may have later qualified it by saying your friend told you but when you start your post with the above line you sound like you are trying to state a fact.
Originally Posted by 40ozFatality
also, 6 months is a lot longer than most people use dbol. i used mine about a month at the beginning of a cycle. it got me some fast gains and i enjoyed it. then i relied on the test and fina to take it from there.
A. I'm not your "buddy
Originally Posted by 40ozFatality
B. Don't ever swear at me again
C. Watch your attitude towards me and the members.....you'll either end up with zero help from anyone or banned.
I didn't take the time to post that info for my health, it was for yours. You were very "matter of fact" in the way you replied to CA's post with your " do you like your balls response" so you seem to have bought the line of horse shit your "buddy" fed you that doesn't know his ass from his elbow and you consequently posted it as your factual knowledge about d-bol.
Not to mention the fact that you came off hard in your response to CA, a knowledgeable member of the board since the beginning with your attitude towards him. Read, and learn. Your not in the position to school anyone yet
granted the first line does sound like that. wanna spank me?
and i also never said he did it for 6 months. just that in 6 months time he doubled in size. i wish people were less concerned with trying to make me look like an idiot, and more concerned with trying to help.
and "as a matter of fact" BUDDY, you can eat it. yea i do come off "hard" because im sick of the constant insults and razzing. all you assholes want to do is prick wave and make the newbies who come here for HELP look, and feel stupid. how about you FUCK OFF. yea i swore. ban me. please. christ
Last edited by 40ozFatality; 09-15-2008 at 05:34 PM.
No prob, thanks for the advise
Originally Posted by 40ozFatality
i dont see how you guys deal with these people on a regular basis. they come asking questions and then they think they already know everything. of course, most of what they know is wrong.
He was never going to listen to anyone and was always going to go ahead and do whatever gear he wanted anyway.
Probably off grinding up dbol and mixing with tap water, ready for a cycle of it as we speak.
Originally Posted by sean usmc
- Rep Power
LOL @ injecting reforvit-b
winny only is a horrible idea, and yes even low doses of 20-25mgs ed affect your joints.
- Rep Power
Holly shit this kid sounds like that other dick head no it all we had a couple of weeks ago..Were are they coming from. Wow 40oz you need to grow up little boy. For real.
#1 you said it 2 or 3 times. "My friend doubled in size in 6 months" 2 or 3 times you said it "Doubled in size" Do you see what your saying and how fucking dumb it sounds? Your just rambling shit out of your mouth just for the sake of it. And you make no sense and make no constructive argument what***8217;s so ever. 1 more thing D-bol is a pil you take it by mouth. And someone already said it you balls will never hurt after 1 injection again that***8217;s you just saying shit just to say shit.. Bro you need to remain silent and just stick around and read and learn. You know shit just like me and a lot of guys did when we first started coming around. And that***8217;s OK but to be a responsible adult and not a little kid you need to know that and act accordingly..
- Rep Power
i guess some guys like to act like a bad ass behind a keyboard. but for him i hope in time he gets his head out his ass and takes these words of wisdom (from you guys) more serious. before he ends up on the front page of a newspaper as another symbol of why not to do steroids.
- Rep Power
Winny has a host of bad side effects, Its is vary hard on joints, It fucts with your liptic profile, loss of hair, and is WAY more liver toxic then Any injectable.
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