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  1. #1
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    1st cycle with reasoning and justification (I hope)
    Hi guys,

    Glad to have found this forum, there seems to be a lot of guys here with educated/logical views on how to use steroids. I'm close to starting my first cycle but still a bit undecided on which path to take as there seems to a few. Hopefully some other newbies will also find this info useful.

    I've tried to keep the post as short as possible. There is further background info at the bottom of how I've come to ask the questions below.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Which Test to use? - I'm leaning more towards Test Enanthate due to its longer single ester which means only 1 injection a week rather than 2. Cycle length would also increase to 10 weeks rather than 8 for Sustonon250. But would not use Test E on a test only cycle as it requires another component to help balance it or the sides get too much. (For Test only I would probably use Sus.)

    Deca or Equipose - Deca seems to be to most popular but Equipose seems to have a lot of plus points including very limited possibility of gyno and fat retention due to very low aromatisation but enough to mediate anabolic activity. Is this decision just down to personal preference? Also does Equipose require front loading? I've read that it does but also read that front loading is "bullshit".

    HPTA (Ball shrinkage) - Using HCG in small doses (300-400IU per week) during the cycle means a theory of prevention rather than cure when it comes to ball shrinkage. I like this idea but not sure if its necessary due to cycle length and dosages. Any advice?

    PCT - HCG and Nolvadex and enough Nolvadex on hand during the cycle to combat gyno if required.

    So at the moment my stack would look something like this but subject to change depending on what I get back from this post.

    Week 1 -2: 500mg Test E, 600mg Equipoise (front loaded).
    Week 2 -10: 500mg Test E, 300mg Equipoise.
    Week 10-11:HCG 3000IU x 2 (one in last week of cycle, 2nd 5 days later).
    Week 12-13:HCG 1500IU x 2 (one 5 days after last HCG, 2nd 6 days after that). 40mg ED Nolvadex.
    Week 14-15:20mg ED Nolvadex.

    Final question: Have I gone too far with this cycle? Should this be my 2nd/3rd cycle instead of my 1st?

    Cheers guys for taking the time to read this, any info/advice would be appreciated whether its to the point above or if you think I've taken wrong approach to this.

    Carl

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Background:

    Firstly a bit about me. I've been training for about 7 years, seriously for the last 3-4 years. Started out in Plymouth at the same gym as [URL=http://www.coremuscle.co.uk/stuart.htm]Stuart Core [/URL] so you can see where the inspiration came from. Not that I want to be his size but defiantly want a piece of the action. I'd always been told that I need to eat but it wasn't until about 3 years ago when I realised exactly how much. So increased calories and the weight has been going on which is great but since July 06 progress has slowed. The temptation of steroids has always been there and now I'm coming to a point where I want to make the jump.

    At first I was opting for a oral only cycle, maybe because it was away of getting the (moderate) goals with out having to inject. The risk of this would be higher levels of stress on the liver.

    With more research and talking to a couple of friends who've been using steroids (one on his 2nd cycle, one whoís done several) who were of the opinion "Don't piss about, you've only got one short at your first cycle, so do it properly". ie go for something like test (500mg/week) and stack it with Deca (300mg/week) with the option D-bol for the first 4 weeks to help kick things off. I got the impression with further reading that most considered this stack as tried and tested for newbies. Not working for everyone but for most.

    After reading the "300mg test a week" thread (see below) I've been reconsidering. I like the approach of starting slow with one item, see how it works for the first cycle and then add to it. My only doubt is that without the Deca more gains will be lost. Its the end result that I'm interested in, not the how big I will look whilst on the cycle, so keeping the gains is the high priority. With regard to the D-bol I'm undecided. I'm not quite sure how much effect they have on the end result. It works fast and sets you up for when the test ramps up but how much difference would it really make after post cycle therapy (pct)? At present, I'm leaving it out.

    Which test to use:

    Sources of research (not all the stuff I've read just the ones of significance):

    Forum posts:

    [URL=http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/phreezers-first-cycle-faq-26.html]Phreezer's First cycle FAQ [/URL] - Gives 3 options for a first cycle (Test only, Test & Deca, Test, Deca & D-bol) also info in injecting

    [URL=http://www.extremefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3458]Beginner Stack x2 [/URL] - Discussion on the Test, Deca & D-bol stack

    [URL=http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51758&page=1&pp=25]300mg test a week for a first cycle [/URL] - Very interesting, quite long at 5 pages of posts but worth the read. It was after this thread I though I would reconsider my cycle and possibly not go for the full works of Test, Deca and D-bol.

    [URL=http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104408]1st test cycle[/URL] - Test E 600mg/week, 10 weeks. After reading the previous thread maybe the dosage is a bit high but interesting reading.

    [URL=http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsteroids.htm]BodyBuilding.com[/URL]: Big Cats Steroid Profiles and Sample Stacks.

    [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page]Wikipedia[/URL]: Anything from find out what HPTA is to understanding the difference between the androgenic and anabolic properties of steroids.

    [URL=http://www.apex-pharmaceuticals.com/]Apex[/URL]: The main brand of steroid available from my source.

    [URL=http://www.healthandfitnesstalk.com/effect.php]Comparison chart[/URL]: This chart obviously should be taken with a pinch of salt, everyone will react differently to different things but still quite interesting.

    Additional supplements: Most people take most of these anyway but just to high light a few - liver tablets, glucosamine, flaxseed oil, Vit B complex, Vit C, multivit and drinking at least 3/4 litres a day.

  2. #2
    Olympian Bodybuilder HeHateMe's Avatar
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    Wow a bibliography and everything!!!

    Test enth or cyp is what I'd recommend at 300-400mg/wk for ten weeks. Deca and EQ are not advisable at this juncture. If you run multiple compounds concurrently without a prior cycling history, you'll have no idea what compound is causing what in terms of gains and sides. The philosophy I employ is always striving to gain the most from the least. This limits potential side effects while at the same time allowing room for play in later cycles. If you start off with a gram per week, what do you run for cycle #2 or #3? 2 grams?

    Test 'gains' (by gains I mean lean body mass tissue, not water retention) are just as keepable as 'gains' from other steroids provided post cycle therapy (pct) and other factors such as supplementation, training, and recovery are in order post-cycle.

    HCG during the cycle is the way to go at 250-500 iu 2x per week. You basically answered your own question in your post. Preventing or limiting atrophy in the first place allows for a more hastily recovery. Nolvadex would then be used two weeks after your last enth injection.

  3. #3
    Your Girls Pay my Bills Warmachine's Avatar
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    good stuff im glad to see someone who has actually researched a little.

    go with just test cyp or enanthate. i think you should run 400-500 but there is an ongoing debate about that.500mg test a week is not a weak cycle by any means, you will blow up if you eat right/train hard.

    i reccomend clomid post cycle therapy (pct) instead of nolva but keep the nolva on hand. get yourself an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to control estro during and post cycle. the suicidal AI's are POR these days so check out aromasin or AIFM

    good luck

  4. #4
    Olympian Bodybuilder HeHateMe's Avatar
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    I also prefer clomid post-cycle. I just recommended the nolva because he already had it.

  5. #5
    Junior Bodybuilder simplygifted's Avatar
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    wow can't say he didn't do his research.

  6. #6
    Senior Member outlawtas's Avatar
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    First off I want to commend you for actually giving a shit. Most guys come on here and say "I've been training 3 weeks and I want to be ronnie coleman, should I do a Tren/Deca cycle or Anadrol and Dbol for 34.5 weeks?".

    What HHE said is true.

    1. Starting with lower doses means you have less of a chance at "frying" your recptors. Meaning, if your start @ 300mg/wk on your first cycle, your 2nd cycle you could gain just as much with 500mg/wk (which is still very low!). But if you start @ 1gram a week, then you will keep needing more and more to achieve the same result. Also, if your diet and training are in order, 500mg/wk of Testosterone will yield then same results as 500mg/wk testosterone + 400mg/wk of Deca + Dbol. There is only so much that you can gain in a given period of time no matter how much/many compounds you throw at your body!

    2. Use one compound so you can pinpoint which compound gave you the best gains and sides, that way you know whether you want to run it again or not.

    3. HCG is better throughout the cycle @ about 1/10 the dosage you suggest. Meaning about 250 IU /wk (usually Mon/thurs).

    4. Test/Deca or Test/Dbol make a great 2nd bulker cycle. Test/EQ make a great 2nd cutter/lean mass cycle.

    Good luck!

  7. #7
    Thoms
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    I'm leaning more towards Test Enanthate
    Good.
    But would not use Test E on a test only cycle as it requires another component to help balance it or the sides get too much. (For Test only I would probably use Sus.)
    This is making no sense.
    With regard to the D-bol I'm undecided.
    Don't do it. Yet.
    Using HCG ... I like this idea but not sure if its necessary due to cycle length and dosages.
    You are right, you could do without on a mild cycle.
    Have I gone too far with this cycle? Should this be my 2nd/3rd cycle instead of my 1st?
    I think you have, and yes. Do the cycle without the eq for starters.
    Apex: The main brand of steroid available from my source.
    Not my brand of choice. But it'll do.

  8. #8
    Thoms
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    Oh and welcome to the board

  9. #9
    Death Dealer ManOfMuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawtas2
    What HHE said is true.

    1. Starting with lower doses means you have less of a chance at "frying" your recptors. Meaning, if your start @ 300mg/wk on your first cycle, your 2nd cycle you could gain just as much with 500mg/wk (which is still very low!). But if you start @ 1gram a week, then you will keep needing more and more to achieve the same result. Also, if your diet and training are in order, 500mg/wk of Testosterone will yield then same results as 500mg/wk testosterone + 400mg/wk of Deca + Dbol. There is only so much that you can gain in a given period of time no matter how much/many compounds you throw at your body!
    I thought all the "frying receptor" stuff was bunk?

  10. #10
    Senior Member outlawtas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiftTillIDie
    I thought all the "frying receptor" stuff was bunk?
    Well i'm not sure about the validity of steroids becoming useless at certain dosages but I can pretty much say I've never really seen someone go lower with their dosages on their next cycle. So you might as well start low because you'll get the gains anyways, and save some health while your at it.

  11. #11
    Your Girls Pay my Bills Warmachine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawtas2
    Well i'm not sure about the validity of steroids becoming useless at certain dosages but I can pretty much say I've never really seen someone go lower with their dosages on their next cycle. So you might as well start low because you'll get the gains anyways, and save some health while your at it.
    yeah you cant "fry" an AR...and i use lower doses. i bulked on 150mg tren eod, just finished 8 weeks with 75 eod. lower Winstrol (winny) this time too...

    im really just using enough right now to cut and maintain what i have. im not huge so think about 500mg a week is enough. i wanted to experiment with higher dosages last bulk to see if i could keep the fat gains lower, but i learned again that gear isnt magic and my body likes to get fat.
    moral of story: there is no reason for progressive cycles to always be higher dosed.

  12. #12
    Death Dealer ManOfMuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawtas2
    Well i'm not sure about the validity of steroids becoming useless at certain dosages but I can pretty much say I've never really seen someone go lower with their dosages on their next cycle. So you might as well start low because you'll get the gains anyways, and save some health while your at it.
    I think your logic is a little off. It seems like people are always upping the dosages, but by the time you hit your fifth, sixth, seventh, cycle etc. you will only be able to raise the doses so high before bad things start to happen.

  13. #13
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    Firstly, thanks for all the responses, really appreciate it

    What Iíve got from the posts is that Test Eth only cycle is the way to go. From a steroid profile Iíd read that Test Eth is usually split up in a cycle with milder components to obtain a Ďless risky cycleí. Whilst the risks werenít specified Iím assuming this is to do with the high levels of estrogens which can be combated by something like Proviron as mentioned by Warmachine rather than adding another component. Is that correct?

    Proviron also seems to allow the body to make the most out of the Testosterone and therefore I would probably opt for using the lower part of the range of 300-500mg/wk.

    Regarding Nolvadex and Clomid. They are both very similar and seems the difference between them was more a marketing ploy rather than a medical one. My preference would be Nolvadex based on what Iíve read. It makes interesting reading, [URL=http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm]click here[/URL] for it. Personal expereince also counts for a lot but I haven't been through that yet

    So with the advice from here, my revised cycle would be:

    ...Test Eth...............HCG......................................Proviron...Nolvadex
    1:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    2:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    3:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    4:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    5:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    6:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    7:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    8:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    9:.300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    10:300-500mg (Mon)..250IUís (Mon), 3000IUís (Thur)...50mg ED...20mg ED (if needed)
    11:.........................3000IUís (Tues), 1500IUís (Sun)................40mg ED
    12:.........................1500IUís (Sat).......................................40mg ED
    13:............................................... .....................................20mg ED
    14:............................................... .....................................20mg ED

    Regarding post cycle therapy (pct), do I have the increased HCG and required Nolvadex starting at the right times? HCG middle of the final cycle week (wk10) and Nolvadex beginning of week 11.

    Cheers,

    Carl

  14. #14
    Thoms
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    At only 300, I seriously feel the HCG is a bit overkill. But you can always add it if you wish. Especially the higher dosages at the end, you should have no need for that when you take small amounts during the cycle. If it was me, i would drop the proviron as well. With Apex gear, I would def shoot 500, they tend to be underdosed. You did a lot of research and I think that's great! But keep it as simple as possible the first time.

  15. #15
    Thoms
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    Regarding post cycle therapy (pct), do I have the increased HCG and required Nolvadex starting at the right times?
    I would wait 2 weeks after your last shot before beginning PCT.

  16. #16
    Olympian Bodybuilder HeHateMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmachine
    yeah you cant "fry" an AR...and i use lower doses. i bulked on 150mg tren eod, just finished 8 weeks with 75 eod. lower Winstrol (winny) this time too...

    im really just using enough right now to cut and maintain what i have. im not huge so think about 500mg a week is enough. i wanted to experiment with higher dosages last bulk to see if i could keep the fat gains lower, but i learned again that gear isnt magic and my body likes to get fat.
    moral of story: there is no reason for progressive cycles to always be higher dosed.
    I use sane, rational doses just like yourself so I do agree with your general philosophy.

    However, I disagree to a certain extent. If someone wants to continually progress past their genetic limitations progressive cycling is pretty much mandatory, whether that progression be from more mild compounds to stronger ones or from increasing one's doses of the same compounds.

    Although, as Lift stated once someone has numerous cycles under their belt, it becomes rather irrational to continue upping steroid doses. Sides become completely uncontrollable, and the gains will tend to level off. Hence the huge demand for other performance enhancing drugs (i.e. EPO, insulin, GH, IGF, and all the other growth factor type products). The utilization of these drugs is in and of itself progressive cycling.

    I guess it depends on the individual and his or her goals.

  17. #17
    Senior Member outlawtas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiftTillIDie
    but by the time you hit your fifth, sixth, seventh, cycle etc. you will only be able to raise the doses so high before bad things start to happen.
    I would agree with that, You really don't see even the biggest of guys (who are not pro's) go over 3grams - at least I haven't. But if you can get the same results with lower dosages then why not keep them as low as possible for as long as possible?

  18. #18
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    OK round 3

    Thoms - Thanks for the info on Apex, upping the dosage to 500mg/wk but will still keep the HCG (got big nuts and what to keep them), but I've halved the dosage for post cycle therapy (pct). Also pushed post cycle therapy (pct) back by 2 weeks, forgot that Test Eth stays in the body for so long, thanks for pointing that out.

    Warmachine - Switched the Proviron for AIFM, from your previous posts its sounds like you've had very positive effects from it. If you've got any more info on it would be great to hear about it.

    HeHateMe - Do I continue with the low level of HCG for the 2 weeks after the last inject and before starting post cycle therapy (pct)? Would I start Nolvadex straight after the first inject or again wait 2 weeks for post cycle therapy (pct)?

    Outlawtas2 - With HCG running through the cycle do I need the higher doses at the end? If so, is the 1500IU's/750IU's tapered dosages enough or should they be doubled?

    ...Test Eth............HCG................................ ......Nolvadex
    1:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    2:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    3:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    4:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    5:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    6:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    7:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    8:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    9:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    10:500mg (Mon)....250IUís (Mon), 250IUís (Thur)......20mg ED (if needed)
    11:.....................250IUís (Mon), 250IUís (Thur)......20mg ED (if needed)
    12:.....................1500IUís (Mon), 1500IUís (Sat)....40mg ED
    13:.....................750IUís (Thur),.........................40mg ED
    14:.....................750IUís (Tues)..........................20mg ED
    15:............................................... ...................20mg ED

    Anti Estrogen: AIFM 1-3 pumps per day depending on how things go. Start at 2 and adjust accordingly.

    Thanks again guys for helping me get on the right track.

    Cheers,

    Carl

  19. #19
    Thoms
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    Looks perfect now.

  20. #20
    Thoms
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    Well, I woudn't keep doing the HCG in PCT. But others might disagree.

  21. #21
    Amateur Bodybuilder motawa's Avatar
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    The Nolva should last atleast 2 weeks after the last HCG shot, since HCG by itself converts into estrogen, so i believe dropping the 14th week HCG is better. You can also drop the HCG the first 2 weeks since it takes couple of weeks for the balls to stop working. But the way you are doing it works too ofcourse. You can also mix the test and hcg in one shot incase you dont like injecting yourself alot.

  22. #22
    estray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoms
    Well, I woudn't keep doing the HCG in PCT. But others might disagree.

    I say cut the hcg out at week 12.

  23. #23
    Community Veteran DADAWG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlH
    OK round 3

    Thoms - Thanks for the info on Apex, upping the dosage to 500mg/wk but will still keep the HCG (got big nuts and what to keep them), but I've halved the dosage for post cycle therapy (pct). Also pushed post cycle therapy (pct) back by 2 weeks, forgot that Test Eth stays in the body for so long, thanks for pointing that out.

    Warmachine - Switched the Proviron for AIFM, from your previous posts its sounds like you've had very positive effects from it. If you've got any more info on it would be great to hear about it.

    HeHateMe - Do I continue with the low level of HCG for the 2 weeks after the last inject and before starting post cycle therapy (pct)? Would I start Nolvadex straight after the first inject or again wait 2 weeks for post cycle therapy (pct)?

    Outlawtas2 - With HCG running through the cycle do I need the higher doses at the end? If so, is the 1500IU's/750IU's tapered dosages enough or should they be doubled?

    ...Test Eth............HCG................................ ......Nolvadex
    1:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    2:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    3:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    4:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    5:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    6:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    7:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    8:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    9:.500mg (Mon).....250IUís x 2 (Mon/Thur)..............20mg ED (if needed)
    10:500mg (Mon)....250IUís (Mon), 250IUís (Thur)......20mg ED (if needed)
    11:.....................250IUís (Mon), 250IUís (Thur)......20mg ED (if needed)
    12:.....................1500IUís (Mon), 1500IUís (Sat)....40mg ED
    13:.....................750IUís (Thur),.........................40mg ED
    14:.....................750IUís (Tues)..........................20mg ED
    15:............................................... ...................20mg ED

    Anti Estrogen: AIFM 1-3 pumps per day depending on how things go. Start at 2 and adjust accordingly.

    Thanks again guys for helping me get on the right track.

    Cheers,

    Carl
    dont up you hcg in weeks 11-14 and stop it completely at week 12 , it will interfere with your recovery from post cycle therapy (pct) . othr than that i would jkepp nolva at 20 mg until week 13 the up it to 40 for 3 weeks
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